Classic ZynAddSubFX VST download

[michaelmoye]

In the mean time, the link to the latest beta is right on this page, second post.

Ok Dux, thanks.
I take it that is v2.4.1.496 beta.

Do you know the current official release version?

[DuX]

It's been a looong time since I used the official version. And Paul is not updating it, nor will, in his words. So this is our only chance to have Zyn VST for Windows. Thanks to various people before, I'm sorry I can't remember their names [two guys worked on it so far], and lately Jackoo. Also, it's not really a trivial work to compile the source for Windows VST, so I really appreciate the work you've done, Jackoo. Thank you!

I must admit that I don't use Zyn so often, and I use it mainly in EnergyXT, not Reaper, so I wouldn't know about the multiprocessor settings for it. However, FWIW I've heard that it's better to leave it to Reaper to handle multiprocessor settings, and it does it by running plugins on different threads, which works really great, if you ask me, since I don't use plugins that can overload the complete 1 CPU core. I find using such plugins rather pointless, and a nuisance even. When CPUs get better, they will be more useful, and it is crucial for such plugins to be "MP capable". When I use NI Kontakt, it works more stable with MP to "off", as well as Battery. It's a matter of experimentation, It seems. For example, U-he ACE works OK with MP to "on", and I use it often, but I often turn MP off anyway, because I don't like crashes, just as a precaution. Battery crashed on me a few times due to MP being turned on. I also found out that MP being turned on doesn't really help so much with lowering the load on the CPU, at least not as much as one would logically think it would.

This MP thingie is still kinda new, and it's hard to write programs for MP, but programmers are slowly getting it, it seems. If they want their programs to work normally, they should be at least made "MP aware". Some older plugins even crash on modern computers due to not being "MP aware", which is not the same as "MP capable", of course. "MP aware" plugins just have to be "aware" [and not crash! ] of the DAW assigning it to work on this or that CPU core.

Cheers!

[ishkabbible]

I must admit that I don't use Zyn so often, and I use it mainly in EnergyXT, not Reaper, so I wouldn't know about the multiprocessor settings for it.

Oh OK. I got the impression from your earlier comment that you had run Zyn in this configuration and found it stable...

This MP thingie is still kinda new, and it's hard to write programs for MP, but programmers are slowly getting it, it seems. If they want their programs to work normally, they should be at least made "MP aware". Some older plugins even crash on modern computers due to not being "MP aware", which is not the same as "MP capable", of course. "MP aware" plugins just have to be "aware" [and not crash! ] of the DAW assigning it to work on this or that CPU core.

Jackoo and I have been discussing his threading model and how we might make Zyn MP aware (or at least more MP-aware-er ). However, I am more than a little ticked off that the DAW coders have punted that problem down to the VSTs - there is really no reason why the VST should have to care, if the DAW would just farm ALL of the threads for a given instance of a VST out to the same CPU instead of being lazy and just tossing them all on the thread pile and having Windows sort 'em out.

since I don't use plugins that can overload the complete 1 CPU core. I find using such plugins rather pointless, and a nuisance even.

The thing about Zyn is that you can create nearly arbitrarily complex patches, and my musical creations typically run 20 - 40 instances of Zyn, so for me, at least, it isn't really that difficult to overload a single fast CPU. I bumped my head on that limit with both "eTune" and "Elephino", and my latest project has actually exceeded it - hence my newfound interest in multiprocessing.

it's not really a trivial work to compile the source for Windows VST

Well I am going to take that plunge here in the next couple of weeks. Wish me luck!

[FrettedSynth]

Well I am going to take that plunge here in the next couple of weeks. Wish me luck!

Ummm! Good luck, I for one sure look forward to the continued development of Zyn. Only wish I could help but I will for sure help to test if you need?

Joe

[ishkabbible]

but I will for sure help to test if you need?

Joe

That's what these betas are all about

[DuX]

You use 20-40 instances of Zyn in one project. "Great" way of thinking. I suppose something called "sampling" doesn't exist for you. Or "freezing". Why would you use so many instances of the same VSTi clogging your CPU???? Just curious...? Do they all play at the same time? Can't you just sample the sounds that occur rarely? People are unbelievable these days... you'd be really choking if you had to use a sampler with 16 polyphony, and a synth with 32 polyphony as I used back in the day.

People made great hits with that equipment, man. Polyphony was a great luxury, not to mention extra outputs so you could process the sounds. What we have these days is really great but some people [like you] push the boundaries into the unnecessary too much.

I run 1-2 Zyns in a project, maybe. I use a weird MIDI thing called "program change" to change the programs as the song progresses, so I don't have to have 20-40 Zyns in the memory at one time. But I suppose making a program change would be too much of a hassle for you. I also "sample" sounds if they occur just a few times. And then you weep it doesn't work as it's supposed to and that it crashes. Unbelievable. Learn how to optimise. It will sound BETTER in the end, and it will spare you from many headaches. I guarantee you that.

Or get a hamburger and continue to be pigheaded. People like to be that way lately. "What does he know?? He's just an old rag." It's all fine with me. What you're doing you're doing to yourself, not me. I'm fine, and I don't find ANY problems with Zyn or most of the audio things actually. Eeeeverything works for me, unless it's a really buggy program. Why? Read it again from the beginning.

Have a great day!

P.S. I have an AMD Phenom 4 core, and I barely go to 50% of the CPU all the time. It is not because I'm playing "minimal techno" but because I do think about how to use the CPU less. Like: bass sounds shouldn't be polyphonic, and FX that occur only occasionally should be sampled etc...

[folderol]

<snip very peculiar and borderline insulting comments>

What you're doing you're doing to yourself, not me. I'm fine, and I don't find ANY problems with Zyn or most of the audio things actually.

So if you're 'fine' why bother to comment at all?

[DuX]

I'm fine with the plugin, not the whiners that whine all the time, especially when it is a freeware plugin we're talking about, and the man that has put so much effort to bring the newest version to us in VST Windows format that nobody would take the plunge to make.

And I'm not fine with the people who take 20-40 cars to get to one place when you only need 1-2. It's insane. There's so much lack of knowledge about everything these days. Everybody knows everything so superficially.

[DuX]

Banana song. I'm not going to reply any more.



Dance and be happy. Brain is a really puzzling thing. Usually some people have it and some not. The ones that don't have it like to be frustrated about it. The ones that do have it get frustrated by the ones that don't have it. I'm not the one that will get frustrated. It's your problem, not mine. I've got better things to do. Like washing my socks, or opening the window to let the farts out. Or modifying some hardware, or making some tunes. Forums are such a waste of time. Especially if you're trying to teach something to someone. And the first thing they don't realise - we're doing it for free. Then the second thing comes in - someone saying you're wrong. It's just stupendously insane. I don't have to defend myself against you, but I have no time to spare for stupid messaging about things that are so obvious. I don't feel like discussing those. It's boring and a waste of time. Google, Wiki, other forums, this forum, SEARCH stuff, LEARN stuff. There's so much to learn. I don't think I'll ever stop learning about audio, and that's what attracted me to it. It's endless. It could take multiple lives to know a lot about every aspect of music, production, and instruments...

Bye.

[ishkabbible]

And I'm not fine with the people who take 20-40 cars to get to one place when you only need 1-2. It's insane. There's so much lack of knowledge about everything these days. Everybody knows everything so superficially.

DuX, I learned to program in the 60s on a computer that that had the "memory upgrade" to 8K of *core*, and I started doing electronic music when "polyphony" meant recording one note, rewinding the tape, then recording the second note. I got fed up with that paradigm and started designing my own polyphonic synth in 1975 - completed it in '79. It was about that time that I built my first 8080-based computer, and realized that I could generate audio waveforms by adding a D/A converter, so my wonderful polyphonic synth had just become obsolete. I wasn't the only one thinking that way - Check out https://soundcloud.com/ish-kabbible/mic ... st-digital - I recorded that on a TMS9900 micro with a 12-bit D/A built by a guy up in Phoenix.
So when you talk about using resources efficiently, you are preaching to the choir.

But let me turn your critique around: I have a core i7-3770 running at 3.4GHZ - 4 cores, each with 2 independent instruction pipelines. Why SHOULDN'T I use them all up? If you have 100 kids to get to the soccer game, and you have 20 cars, why would you make 20 trips in 1 car? *That* is insane. I am already using the tricks you mentioned - my problem is that I am designing single sounds that are complex enough to tax a CPU. My snare drum patch runs one addsynth with 2 independent voices and 2 subsynths in parallel to get just the right sound. My gong pushes Podium to 40% every time I strike it (That is one that I bounce to audio immediately by default).

My point here is that the softsynth paradigm *should* allow me to do all the things I could only dream of 30 years ago. And it *should* allow me to do them in a much more streamlined fashion. CPU cycles are cheap - brain cycles cost a LOT more.

not the whiners that whine all the time

When have you heard me whine? (besides what I consider a legitimate gripe about the DAW coders punting the problem down to the VST level)? How does that viagra commercial go? "I've reached the age where I know how to solve problems" as he uses his horses to pull the horse trailer out of the ditch.

and the man that has put so much effort to bring the newest version to us in VST Windows format that nobody would take the plunge to make.

Jackoo is a great guy, and yes, he has turned Paul's synth into a wonderful tool for us Winders folks. He and I keep a lively discussion going via e-mail, and I intend to start taking some of the load off of him and start doing some coding on the VST myself here shortly. I believe that the VST *CAN* be made MP-aware, and I have a fairly good idea of how to do it.

So DuX - start thinking about what YOU could do if you COULD run 20 or 30 Zyns in parallel

[DuX]

I'm quite satisfied with rendering as much as I can to audio and then mixing it, thank you. If you make it perfect, why not offloading it to audio. You can have a zillion tracks that way, and way more complex arrangements, not to mention that your DAW will be responding more quickly than when VSTis are consuming 90% of the CPU. In Reaper, there is a "catch" that one can use when you want to use 20-40 VSTis, and it's called "muting". When you mute a track, all the VSTi and VST is not processing anything until you unmute it. That's a good "catch". It only takes some time to automate the mutes. So what I'm actually proposing to you is just more clever use of resources, where it's needed. If the sound is static - render it. Delete VSTis that you don't need, or mute them. You can use the acquired resources for something else, or just make your DAW work better. Either sounds and works fine. Do you like your DAW to "crawl"? I don't think so.

My point is that you can do a lot more with today's CPUs than you do, and you only have to learn and practice consuming resources to get even more from them. And tomorrow's CPUs will be just more powerful. That doesn't just mean we will be able to use 100 Zyns in one project, but we will be able to also use more sophisticated VST FX when they start emulating the hardware better. Having enough CPU processing available is not something that will ever happen. Just like the HD space, or the length of life.

I enjoyed reading your post Ishkabbible! Thank you. You seem to be a great guy. You've been into "it" even a bit longer than me. Maybe we will meet some day in an aged care home, and we will discuss everything in more depth.

Respect, and

Cheers!

[ishkabbible]

If you make it perfect, why not offloading it to audio.

I'll let you know as soon as I get one perfect

And tomorrow's CPUs will be just more powerful.

Indeed, but Moore's law has hit a wall in semiconductor physics, which I believe means that compute power increases will come from more cores / chip rather than more processing power / core at least for the next few years. ANy software that can not scale to more cores will be left behind - I would prefer that Zyn not suffer that fate.

And in the mean time, I will just keep bouncing and unbouncing tracks, wasting brain cycles while 7/8ths of my computer sits idly laughing at me

[ishkabbible]

I am getting frequent Zyn crashes in Reaper, so it seems that I am doing something wrong. ...how have you configured the various multiprocessing options?

Followup: I think I found the magic settings - it appears that Zyn doesn't take well to "Anticipative FX processing". I unchecked that option and Zyn quit crashing, and I am still seeing activity in all 4 cores.

I must say that I am impressed with Reaper's CPU efficiency. According to its built-in performance meter, patches that were slamming Podium are using CPU in the single digits - The CPU total never went over 5% when running Zyn on a dozen tracks simultaneously with a complex passage that always caused Podium to drop samples.
That's a factor of 20 speedup, and possibly even a factor of 100 considering there appears to be about 2.5% overhead in that number. Now I am really wondering if I have some setting wrong in Podium

[DuX]

This is a great tip, about the anticipative FX processing. Thanks, Ishkabbible! I often think about should I turn it off anyway. It does seem to have problems with some VSTs, but when you turn it off, they use a bit more CPU. On the other hand, everything seems to work more smoothly, at least on my PC. It is one of those settings that you sometimes find useful, but at other times not. MP is supposed to work better with it "on", too.

Cheers!

[jackoo]

Thanks to a very generous member here on KVR, I'm going to host the VST also on
http://zynaddsubfx.pastnotecut.org/

This should provide with a 'clean' download link for everybody. I will also add the appropriate links on the first page of this thread.