StereoScope Graphing Error
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
i've been meaning to post about this. the StereoScope graph is off between center and 100% Left/Right (possibly beyond too)
A signal panned 50% is graphed further than 50%. 50% on the graph is actually 38%
A signal panned 50% is graphed further than 50%. 50% on the graph is actually 38%
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 5821 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
Hi,
the value for the position actually depends on the panning law, and the one we have chosen for the gain plug-ins is not the same as for the StereoScope Series. The panning law to chose the center in the widening gain plug-in is linear, whereas for the Stereoscope series it is close to a cosine law, which is closer to our perception of the stereo field.
We will probably propose several panning laws in the future, in order to improve the coherence of our products.
the value for the position actually depends on the panning law, and the one we have chosen for the gain plug-ins is not the same as for the StereoScope Series. The panning law to chose the center in the widening gain plug-in is linear, whereas for the Stereoscope series it is close to a cosine law, which is closer to our perception of the stereo field.
We will probably propose several panning laws in the future, in order to improve the coherence of our products.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
I tried a few other panning plugs and the behavior was the same, they're all linear as would be expected
so we perceive 50% left to be further left than reality (i've never read about stereo perception)
so we perceive 50% left to be further left than reality (i've never read about stereo perception)
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- KVRist
- 33 posts since 19 Dec, 2009 from Japan
StereoScope:
L - R = 7dB --> 50%L
R - L = 7dB --> 50%R
Generally:
L - R = 6dB --> 50%L
R - L = 6dB --> 50%R
-6dB = 0.1^(6dB / 20) = 0.501187... = about 50%
The panning law influences the envelope-height, but it doesn't influence the envelope-position(50%L / C / 50%R etc).
I think so.
I have been used to StereoScope already.
All meters have a habit.
L - R = 7dB --> 50%L
R - L = 7dB --> 50%R
Generally:
L - R = 6dB --> 50%L
R - L = 6dB --> 50%R
-6dB = 0.1^(6dB / 20) = 0.501187... = about 50%
The panning law influences the envelope-height, but it doesn't influence the envelope-position(50%L / C / 50%R etc).
I think so.
I have been used to StereoScope already.
All meters have a habit.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
it does influence the envelope-position. I tried it with 0, -3 and -6Hayate Yagami wrote: The panning law influences the envelope-height, but it doesn't influence the envelope-position
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- KVRist
- 33 posts since 19 Dec, 2009 from Japan
It means the difference between the R-ch and L-ch level influences the envelope-position.kcisANDderit wrote:it does influence the envelope-position. I tried it with 0, -3 and -6Hayate Yagami wrote: The panning law influences the envelope-height, but it doesn't influence the envelope-position
However any panning law,
L(level) - R(level) = 6dB --> 50%L
R(level) - L(level) = 6dB --> 50%R
I think this is the ideal.
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 5821 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
Anyway the actual perception of the human hear in the stereo field is much more complex: it depends on many parameters, such as the monitoring system (headphones or speakers as well as the position of speakers), the spectral content and delay between left and right.
So it means that the scales for measurements have to be arbitrary in some way, just like the pan laws. One thing we could add to the product to improve this is to offer several types of scales so that the measurement would fit the particular method you are used to.
So it means that the scales for measurements have to be arbitrary in some way, just like the pan laws. One thing we could add to the product to improve this is to offer several types of scales so that the measurement would fit the particular method you are used to.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
well imo, since you can't account for everyone's perception, the simplest and best solution is to make it linear. if someone turns the panpot 50% then the scope should read around 50%
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 5821 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
That's a good point. We'll take your remark into account when we think about the next update.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
in v1.9 cosine gives me the above, not linearkcisANDderit wrote:well imo, since you can't account for everyone's perception, the simplest and best solution is to make it linear. if someone turns the panpot 50% then the scope should read around 50%
is that as it should be?
just asking cuz I really don't understand the math anyway, but if the plugin doesn't display the options as you intended then i'm letting you know
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Blue Cat Audio Blue Cat Audio https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=39981
- KVRAF
- 5821 posts since 8 Sep, 2004 from Paris (France)
It depends on the settings in your host and the way they decided to call pan laws . Typically in Sonar the default pan law is sine/cosine, and that's a pretty common setting, so "Cosine" is indeed the way to go!
BTW be aware that the new scaling will be 100% in sync with your daw for mono signals only, since for stereo signals the perceived position depends on how the sound is spread between channels.
Hope this helps!
BTW be aware that the new scaling will be 100% in sync with your daw for mono signals only, since for stereo signals the perceived position depends on how the sound is spread between channels.
Hope this helps!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 443 posts since 20 Nov, 2010 from stuck in transition
got it. thx