What are your favorite non-Valhalla reverbs, and why?

[valhallasound]

My BigSky is on its way!

Did you order direct from Strymon?

I have a guitar shop about 5 blocks from my house that carries the Strymon pedals. I should see if I can preorder through them. I need to pick one of these pedals up, just to keep track of what is going on in this space.

I'm reasonably confident in my own algorithm design skills, but putting algorithms of this quality in a beautiful metallic box...well, it provokes my professional jealousy.

Sean Costello

[Beatworld]

Very well done! The reverb time is different for different droplets, and gets shorter when the rhythm starts, so it is probably a synthetic reverb. It could theoretically be a real plate, but I'm going to guess Lex 224, as this got popular real quickly within New Age circles.

Sean Costello

The album credits say this:

"Recorded and mixed at the Sinus Studio, Bern (Switzerland) with the help of Lexicon Digital Reverberation Systems. May - November 1982"

[valhallasound]

Very well done! The reverb time is different for different droplets, and gets shorter when the rhythm starts, so it is probably a synthetic reverb. It could theoretically be a real plate, but I'm going to guess Lex 224, as this got popular real quickly within New Age circles.

Sean Costello

The album credits say this:

"Recorded and mixed at the Sinus Studio, Bern (Switzerland) with the help of Lexicon Digital Reverberation Systems. May - November 1982"

I'm getting better at guessing this stuff.

[Beatworld]

Very well done! The reverb time is different for different droplets, and gets shorter when the rhythm starts, so it is probably a synthetic reverb. It could theoretically be a real plate, but I'm going to guess Lex 224, as this got popular real quickly within New Age circles.

Sean Costello

The album credits say this:

"Recorded and mixed at the Sinus Studio, Bern (Switzerland) with the help of Lexicon Digital Reverberation Systems. May - November 1982"

I'm getting better at guessing this stuff.

Yes, you're good at it
It has to be the 224 as at 1982 doesn't it?
Could it be the 224XL ?
Or are they the same thing ?

UPDATE: Found this (at mix online.com):

Unveiled at the AES show in 1978, the Lexicon 224 was not the first digital reverb (that honor goes to EMT's 250), but the 224 (and its 224X and 224XL cousins) was the most ubiquitous and popular high-end studio reverb in history.

The reverb was conceived when Dr. David Griesinger, a nuclear physicist/musician/classical recording engineer, started working on a digital solution to reverb. Seeing EMT's 250 encouraged him to merge a microcomputer with his reverb design. He pitched his rough prototype to Lexicon, which bought the invention and brought Griesinger on board to help refine the product. One of Griesinger's concepts for the new reverb was creating a separate control unit for parameter adjustment and program access, and the Lexicon 224 was unveiled at the AES show in 1978.

The 224 reverberation system had a console-top controller with a four-rackspace brain, two inputs, four outputs and interchangeable programs to simulate chambers, plates and rooms. The 224 was "affordable"—meaning $7,500 with two programs or $7,900 with four programs. But at half the price of EMT's 250, the 224 was a hit. Eventually, the 224 evolved into the improved 224X and 224XL, which included the LARC (Lexicon Alphanumeric Remote Control), offering fingertip access to programs and parameters, dedicated function keys and a 24-character LED.

[Dean Aka Nekro]

Plugin wise Valhalla room and vintage verb are pretty much the only two reverbs I use for algorithmic. Then for convolution I still love/use a lot Wizoo's WizooVerb W2 (GUI/Workflow is quick with everything laid out well), It lets one 'render' the tail of an IR to treat/behave more like an algorithm would (It isn't as good by miles mind, Still handy) with an EQ post everything for shaping. Then the other would be LiquidSonics Reverberate, Well priced and does everything I could really want
Other stuff I'll mention without any shame because sometimes shit reverb is just right for the job would be alesis midiverb and quadraverb, Boss RV-5 pedal (Anytime I need post-rock/metal reverb on clean up to fairly driven guitar sounds its that and the obligatory DD-3 or 5. Almost instant ISIS dare I say), Zoom 1201 (Go on all have a good laugh...But if you do I will find you and I will kill you ). That's it off the top of my head. I have a lot of spring reverbs, Long to short tank as I rip the things out of every guitar amp head and combo I have bought. I am a fan of spring reverb but on anything but guitar (and equally if not more so bass guitar). I've had the pleasure of using nice outboard from plates, ams, lexicon, eventide and briscati rack stuff. I would really, really like to use/play with a yardstick for a good few days

All the best

Dean

[deastman]

My BigSky is on its way!

Did you order direct from Strymon?

I have a guitar shop about 5 blocks from my house that carries the Strymon pedals. I should see if I can preorder through them. I need to pick one of these pedals up, just to keep track of what is going on in this space.

I'm reasonably confident in my own algorithm design skills, but putting algorithms of this quality in a beautiful metallic box...well, it provokes my professional jealousy.

Sean Costello

Yes, direct from Strymon. I could have avoided California sales tax if I waited and bought elsewhere, but that would require impulse control.

[valhallasound]

It has to be the 224 as at 1982 doesn't it?
Could it be the 224XL ?
Or are they the same thing ?

UPDATE: Found this (at mix online.com):

Unveiled at the AES show in 1978, the Lexicon 224 was not the first digital reverb (that honor goes to EMT's 250), but the 224 (and its 224X and 224XL cousins) was the most ubiquitous and popular high-end studio reverb in history.

The reverb was conceived when Dr. David Griesinger, a nuclear physicist/musician/classical recording engineer, started working on a digital solution to reverb. Seeing EMT's 250 encouraged him to merge a microcomputer with his reverb design. He pitched his rough prototype to Lexicon, which bought the invention and brought Griesinger on board to help refine the product. One of Griesinger's concepts for the new reverb was creating a separate control unit for parameter adjustment and program access, and the Lexicon 224 was unveiled at the AES show in 1978.

The 224 reverberation system had a console-top controller with a four-rackspace brain, two inputs, four outputs and interchangeable programs to simulate chambers, plates and rooms. The 224 was "affordable"—meaning $7,500 with two programs or $7,900 with four programs. But at half the price of EMT's 250, the 224 was a hit. Eventually, the 224 evolved into the improved 224X and 224XL, which included the LARC (Lexicon Alphanumeric Remote Control), offering fingertip access to programs and parameters, dedicated function keys and a 24-character LED.

The 224XL can be viewed as a superset of the 224. Similar architecture, but the 224XL has the following additions/upgrades:

- Sampling rate of the 224XL is 34.125 kHz, versus the 20 kHz of the Lexicon 224. The 224XL has high frequencies up to 15 kHz, versus 8 kHz for the 224. To my ears, the 224XL sounds like a brighter modern reverb, even though the 15 kHz cutoff is lower than most modern hardware verbs.

- IIRC, the 224XL has a lot more delay memory.

- The 224 algorithms are all in the 224XL, but with various additions and changes: higher sampling rates, pre-echos, ability to change the size of the algorithm, additional filtering, and some other stuff.

- Some of the 224 algorithms have additional variants and changes in the 224XL. For example, the 224 had Concert Hall A and B, while the 224XL has Concert Hall (224 Hall B), Bright Hall (224 Hall A) and Dark Hall (a Concert Hall variation with more modulation and denser input diffusion). There are a few plate variants in the 224XL (Plate and Small Plate), a few different variants of the Room algorithm, and a few Constant Density Plate versions.

- There are 2 new reverb algorithms in the 224XL, Rich Chamber and Rich Plate. The Rich Chamber is the "base" algorithm that most later Lexicon algorithms seem to be derived from. The Rich Plate might be similar to later plates, but it is very different from the plate in my PCM70. The 224XL Rich Plate is GLORIOUS, especially at large Size settings. Both of these algorithms have chorusing-style modulation, while most later descendents of these algorithms (such as the 480L algorithms) either use "random hall" type modulation or no modulation at all.

- The Chorus algorithm in the 224XL is different from the 224, and there are some additional "effect" algorithms in the 224XL (nonlinear reverb, resonators).

I haven't heard a better reverb than the 224XL. It is bright enough to sound modern, but it has a lot of low end weight and bloom. There is plenty of lofi digital grit on tap, which adds a thickness to the sound. The echo density is more than enough for drums, and the diffusion can be dramatically lowered to work with synths and vocals. The chorusing modulation just sounds perfect. I love the 224XL.

Sean Costello

[Tronam]

Caverna Magica and "Behind The Gardens, Behind The Wall, Under The Tree" are both master pieces of production and fabulous showcases of great use of great reverbs.

Timeless albums.

Yeah, and it continued that way up through Down to the Moon: always warm and intimate, yet still spacious. His soundscapes were so meticulous. Then, his production sound changed dramatically with 1989's Dancing with the Lion. It felt distant, cold, and overly bright, drenched in reverb. I suppose a lot of albums in the late 80s were guilty of this, but the difference was really striking even to my untrained tween ears. I'd never heard him use quite this much reverb before. At least it never sounded this obvious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwGZM7Aq3I

[Tronam]

Very well done! The reverb time is different for different droplets, and gets shorter when the rhythm starts, so it is probably a synthetic reverb. It could theoretically be a real plate, but I'm going to guess Lex 224, as this got popular real quickly within New Age circles.

Sean Costello

That's probably totally spot on! So, in 1982 was the 224LX even in production yet? It was around this time that Ray Lynch was starting to release his first new age synthesizer albums as well (Deep Breakfast etc...), so perhaps he was also using the 224. I'd never heard the DX7 sound so delicate and airy:
(unfortunately pretty lousy sound quality in this video, but it still showcases the reverb pretty well)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Db3dGjITrWA

[Beatworld]

I haven't heard a better reverb than the 224XL. It is bright enough to sound modern, but it has a lot of low end weight and bloom. There is plenty of lofi digital grit on tap, which adds a thickness to the sound. The echo density is more than enough for drums, and the diffusion can be dramatically lowered to work with synths and vocals. The chorusing modulation just sounds perfect. I love the 224XL.

Sean Costello

hmm..you are adding 2 new algos to the next release of VVV.
224 and 224XL ??

[valhallasound]

I haven't heard a better reverb than the 224XL. It is bright enough to sound modern, but it has a lot of low end weight and bloom. There is plenty of lofi digital grit on tap, which adds a thickness to the sound. The echo density is more than enough for drums, and the diffusion can be dramatically lowered to work with synths and vocals. The chorusing modulation just sounds perfect. I love the 224XL.

Sean Costello

hmm..you are adding 2 new algos to the next release of VVV.
224 and 224XL ??

This is a Valhalla-free zone, remember? I'm just here to talk about how darned good that 224XL sounded in the studio, not about why I was in the studio working with the 224XL that day.

[Beatworld]

This is a Valhalla-free zone, remember? I'm just here to talk about how darned good that 224XL sounded in the studio, not about why I was in the studio working with the 224XL that day.

YES, of course, silly me

Back to listening to Andreas V then

[Stollmeister]

My BigSky is on its way!

I'm reasonably confident in my own algorithm design skills, but putting algorithms of this quality in a beautiful metallic box...well, it provokes my professional jealousy.

Sean Costello

If this weren't a Valhalla free zone I would point out that the only cure for that feeling is putting your own algorithms in beautiful metallic boxes (and sending them to me!). (No the Z-dsp, or whatever it's called, does not count as a beautiful metallic box.)

[Dean Aka Nekro]

I am quite gutted that they dropped the Damage Control range. It will be at least interesting if they came out with a gain orientated box that would cover everything from a clean boost all the way to full on modern, br00tal high-gain plus all areas in between. The Solid Metal and Demonizer are very decent boxes/pre-amps as are the lower gain models (Liquid Blues & Womanizer). I understand the Glass Nexus and TimeLine boxes being covered by the rather new direction/releases (or if not fully already, Should be).
An all-in-one gain box with a powerful EQ would be much welcomed in dsp

I apologize for not talking reverb for this post, Just never got the reason for changing name and ceasing good quality gear, deastman's purchase refreshed my memory. Anyway hope you really have a lot of fun with it when it does arrive deastman

Best to all as always

Dean

[xalama qo]

Anyway, the 224 and RMX16 are both good examples of grainy older verbs that sound a little weird in isolation, but work like magic in a mix. I have a pretty good idea about how they work, but I am still trying to figure out why they work. Is it the spatial impression generated by the widely spaced reflections (which are heard as "grain" in isolation)? Or is it the case that the grain is lost within the depths of a mix, and is masked by other instruments? Someone suggested this earlier, and it is an interesting idea - that a full mix will "mask" discrete reflections, in a similar way as to how signals in a given frequency area will mask neighboring frequencies.

Then again, maybe it is the opposite - that grainy reverbs have reflections that DON'T get masked in the mix, and therefore help the sound being reverbed to stand out more. I don't know if anyone has done research on this sort of "spatial masking."

Sean Costello

Hey Sean,
Apologies if this has already been addressed, I haven't read the whole thread!

Could it be that the graininess of these reverbs allows 'gaps' for the rest of the mix to sit in? For example, on a macro scale, many chopped, gated, or transient-shaped percussion loops sound terrible by themselves, but pop them in a mix and they just work.

To my small mind that would seem a logical explanation, that something which sounds 'bitty' and incomplete in isolation, works in the context of a mix because it inherently provides space for the mix to fit into and fill in.
I think it possibly has more to do with temporal space, even in the minuscule millisecond differences found in reverbs, as opposed to frequency spectrum masking.

Why this would be different to using another reverb and toning down the density... I don't know. Maybe that has to do with reflection spacing, overall frequency response/reproduction, AD/DA conversion, all that stuff too?