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valhallasound
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3386 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:06 pm

Conjecture wrote:Always kinda liked this one, asymmetrical slapback and all. Really gives me the impression of amplified sound going into a big empty room / concert hall. Pretty washy and wet at times, but never messes with the clarity of the guitar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X30AroojjFk


Lexicon 224. Concert Hall algorithm.

Depth set fairly high. This pushes the "microphones" back in the hall, so the reverb attack fades in slowly. This also adds a few echos to the sound - with Depth set at the minimum value, you hear more of an instant attack, less echos.

Diffusion set kinda low, so you can hear a bit of chatter when he slams on the strings. Not as noticeable on the hammer-ons, but the bass notes are total chatter city. This might also be due to the depth setting

The "mode enhancement" (chorusing) is set fairly high, which causes the stereo image to have a lot of movement.

What a magnificent sound.

I was able to find out through a bit of research that this was the reverb used at the Windham Hill studios, but I recognized that sound right away, even through the laptop speakers. Put on headphones, and you're in that huge Concert Hall swirl.

Also, this thread is really great.


Thanks for contributing!

Sean Costello
hibidy
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42637 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:09 pm

Micheal Hedges, yet another brilliant musician taken too quickly.
dimtsak
KVRist
 
70 posts since 24 Jan, 2012, from Greece

Postby dimtsak; Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:24 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=my3ell_ooXA

The reverb on vocals.

How much predelay is in there?
Is there any modulation too?

Really beautiful.
hibidy
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42637 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:09 pm

Van Halen one and two verbs.......those were terrific. Lots of it, but doesn't sound lame or overused.
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valhallasound
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3386 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:18 pm

hibidy wrote:Van Halen one and two verbs.......those were terrific. Lots of it, but doesn't sound lame or overused.


YES. Guitar in one channel, delayed plate reverb in the other channel. It shouldn't work, but it really does. Much better than the stereo harmonizer used on later Van Halen.

Sean Costello
hibidy
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42637 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:55 pm

It MUST have been mentioned but the scifi thread made me remember the reverb in the opening music for "bladerunner" and I forgot how much of an impact that has on the mood.
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valhallasound
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3386 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:11 pm

hibidy wrote:It MUST have been mentioned but the scifi thread made me remember the reverb in the opening music for "bladerunner" and I forgot how much of an impact that has on the mood.


Post #2 in the thread. First example. I posted it.

Honestly, this is probably the reason I design reverbs for a living. Seeing that as a 12 yo, on a huge 70 mm Cinerama screen, with 6 track Dolby...goosebumps.

The Michael Hedges track served as a reminder of how amazingly great the Lexicon Concert Hall algorithm is. Or, rather, Lexicon Concert Halls, as there were many variants over the years:

- 224 Small/Large Concert Hall A. The original algorithm, brighter than what followed.
- 224 Small/Large Concert Hall B. Similar to Concert Hall A, but darker tone (or "warmer," depending on your tastes).
- 224XL Concert Hall. Similar to 224 Concert Hall B, but redesigned for higher sampling rate, as well as the ability to adjust the size of the "hall."
- 224XL Bright Hall. Same as 224XL Concert Hall, but brighter, like the original 224 Concert Hall A.
- 224XL Dark Hall. Same as the "Bright Hall," but with added modulation. As the modulation in the older Lexicons caused high frequency loss, adding more modulation made the hall darker. It apparently sounded much smoother than the other concert hall algorithms.
- PCM70 Concert Hall. This is the one I have sitting next to my desk. It is closest to the 224XL Concert Hall - adjustable size, kind of dark. There is a bug in the RTHighCut filter, that results in some weird filtering effects at low cutoffs. This may have been in other variants of the concert hall code.

I haven't heard the Lex 200, but it probably has a similar algorithm to the PCM70. The PCM80 has a Concert Hall algorithm, but I think this was designed by Barry Blesser, based on some reverse engineering by the Ursa Major company for what became the AKG ADR68K reverb, so there is more than a bit of the "telephone game" going on here. In other words, the PCM80 reverb may or may not sound that close to the 224. The PCM bundle Concert Hall algorithm was (according to Michael Carnes) based on Barry Blesser's work.

Sean Costello
hibidy
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42637 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:18 pm

Well, I have to run with this as my brain remembers, I can't remember much and I'm too lazy to go back through and check all over again.
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GaryG
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5514 posts since 13 Jan, 2003, from Kent, UK

Postby GaryG; Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:24 pm

hibidy wrote:Micheal Hedges, yet another brilliant musician taken too quickly.


Must admit he's slipped under my (admittedly faulty and idiosyncratic) radar until now, that tracks great though. Reminded me a little of an Adrian Legg LP I had (the style and production). Someone else to investigate... :)
()_()
(O.o)
(")(")
Amberience
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7018 posts since 7 Mar, 2003, from Climbing the walls inside my mind

Postby Amberience; Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:38 pm

valhallasound wrote:That IS a pretty crappy looking warehouse. I can't figure out if it doubles as a used furniture store, or if people were living there while recording. Sounds great, though. I wouldn't want to hear guitars in that space, but the drums are pretty amazing.


I did want to try guitars actually, just a few solos.. but we ran out of time. But yeah.... drums were epic. The place is a used furniture warehouse which we managed to rent out for 4 days.

The Tacoma Narrows Bridge is about 1/2 hour south of me. It's a lot safer now. :D


:D
Amberience
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7018 posts since 7 Mar, 2003, from Climbing the walls inside my mind

Postby Amberience; Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:39 pm

Oh yeah, the Bladerunner intro... such a massive inspiration to me as a kid. The whole aesthetic had a really profound effect on me and I'd say the movie is one of my primary sources of inspiration.
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valhallasound
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3386 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:42 pm

Amberience wrote:
valhallasound wrote:That IS a pretty crappy looking warehouse. I can't figure out if it doubles as a used furniture store, or if people were living there while recording. Sounds great, though. I wouldn't want to hear guitars in that space, but the drums are pretty amazing.


I did want to try guitars actually, just a few solos.. but we ran out of time. But yeah.... drums were epic. The place is a used furniture warehouse which we managed to rent out for 4 days.


This is a situation where having a TON of microphones would be useful. Super close mikes for the drums, plus various room mikes. I'm reminded of the "Heroes" vocals by Bowie, with 3 separate gated room mikes, each at a totally different distance. Actually, I need to post that example, if it hasn't been posted yet.

The Tacoma Narrows Bridge is about 1/2 hour south of me. It's a lot safer now. :D


:D


You should do a gig with the Mount Saint Helens Vietnam band, for a Washington State / International disaster concert. :lol:

Sean Costello
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bmanic
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7810 posts since 3 Feb, 2003, from Finland, Espoo

Postby bmanic; Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:17 pm

Haven't read through the whole thread but something that gets quite rarely mentioned are the Yamaha reverbs from late 80's and 90's. The whole Rev 1 through 500 series and especially the multi effects boxes, the SPX 900 and 990 (very often found in live racks).

I quite like these various yamaha boxes. They sound very different to the typical lexicon and TC reverbs. Very "splashy" with interesting first reflections. I haven't used one in a long time but the reverb algorithms in this tiny digital guitar preamp from yamaha, the THR-10, are quite lovely! This reminded me about the SPX stuff I've used numerous times while mixing live shows.

Cheers!
bManic
"I'm not trying to be anyone's savior. I'm just trying to think about the future and not be sad." - Elon Musk, TED talk April 2017
hibidy
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42637 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:27 pm

bmanic wrote:Haven't read through the whole thread but......


Man, are you lazy!
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valhallasound
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3386 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:27 pm

bmanic wrote:Haven't read through the whole thread but something that gets quite rarely mentioned are the Yamaha reverbs from late 80's and 90's. The whole Rev 1 through 500 series and especially the multi effects boxes, the SPX 900 and 990 (very often found in live racks).

I quite like these various yamaha boxes. They sound very different to the typical lexicon and TC reverbs. Very "splashy" with interesting first reflections. I haven't used one in a long time but the reverb algorithms in this tiny digital guitar preamp from yamaha, the THR-10, are quite lovely! This reminded me about the SPX stuff I've used numerous times while mixing live shows.

Cheers!
bManic


My impression of the 80s Yamaha reverbs (and "impression" should be taken as much less comprehensive/informed than "understanding") is that they had pretty complicated early reflections, and a multi-band brute force Schroeder network for the late reverb. This is good for getting a dense reverb, but doesn't give the realism of an algorithm that has increasing echo density with time. I wouldn't be surprised if the Yamaha reverbs had more DSP horsepower than the Lexicon reverbs, but the Lexicon algorithms get more bang for the buck than a Schroeder structure.

By the mid-1990s, Yamaha was filing patents for waveguide and FDN reverbs, as well as convolution reverbs. These should yield much more "realistic" results, but "realistic" isn't necessarily what is required in music production.

My Bloody Valentine, Loveless: SPX90, reverse/nonlin algorithm.

Sean Costello
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