Ok straight up Poll... Ik White VS Native instruments VCA2A

[ObsoleteAcc99]

So this isn't "buying into marketing" there's a measurable difference in how well Fairchild and Pultec were modelled vs. the newer IK plugins.

Well the fact is nobody knows "how well any of them are modeled" except for the math wizard in his bedroom who probably emailed the algorithm to IK, before they slapped an IK Multimedia GUI on it and took a photo of "fred the janitor" standing next to an 1176.

yeah i am *sure* that's what Ik did.

Can you stay out of my topics, and in return i promise to stay out of yours?

[@midnight]

Consider yourself muted ttoz.

[@midnight]

I use humor to illustrate my point, which is that none of us really know how these plugins are made. So to say "this plugin was more intricately modeled because it has distortion" well that's just silly.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

the ik ones don't even have distortion modeled so that original post was wrong from the poster anyway.

I appreciate you muting me (sincerely).

[Funkybot's Evil Twin]

I use humor to illustrate my point, which is that none of us really know how these plugins are made. So to say "this plugin was more intricately modeled because it has distortion" well that's just silly.

We KNOW what it DOESN'T do. That you can measure. If it doesn't do things the hardware does, like add harmonics when bypassed, have an effect on frequency response based on input/output settings, distort more when pushed harder, then you can say it's not as complete a model, and you can measure those things. That doesn't mean other companies that attempt to model this behavior automatically nailed the sound of the 1176, but IK didn't even try. It can be measured.

[@midnight]

I use humor to illustrate my point, which is that none of us really know how these plugins are made. So to say "this plugin was more intricately modeled because it has distortion" well that's just silly.

We KNOW what it DOESN'T do. That you can measure. If it doesn't do things the hardware does, like add harmonics when bypassed, have an effect on frequency response based on input/output settings, distort more when pushed harder, then you can say it's not as complete a model, and you can measure those things. That doesn't mean other companies that attempt to model this behavior automatically nailed the sound of the 1176, but IK didn't even try. It can be measured.

Not disagreeing, just saying, a bit of skepticism when dealing with these plugins is pretty healthy IMO.

We don't know if the distortion on Softube or IK compressors is a result of some complex circuit model with virtual capacitors interacting with each other,

or it could be a really simple non-linear distortion code that has nothing to do with any of that ^

which is why I think its best to simply use our ears and decide which one *sounds better* than to say which one is a more "complete model" because none of us were standing over anybodies shoulder when they were making these plugins, to verify if there are "virtual circuits" running under the hood or not, and you would never be able to guess by the sound

IMO that Waves stuff, those CLA compressors sound a bit better than the competition. I use the DCAM bundle for most of my compression, I like the way that stuff sounds for $99 for four compressors.

For the LA-2A I would get the Waves since there is no DCAM version.



edit: Also apparently Bootsie's ThrillseekerLA is one of the very best LA2A style compressors, unfortunately it is a PC only plugin.

[hibidy]

And it's not x64, and it's synthmaker (or is it synthedit, whatever)

[@midnight]

And it's not x64, and it's synthmaker (or is it synthedit, whatever)

native x64 isn't really needed for a plugin like that, is it?

it works just fine on my x64 windows system running reaper

i'm going to do my aliasing test on it tommorow

[hibidy]

Oh, so it's guys like YOU that held up x64 plugs so long



I'm 100% native. Bootsie makes great sounding stuff, but I have my reasons for not using them.

[3ee]

So does anyone just think "yeah, they both have good points?"

Yes ..but I would surely choose the NI one.

let's make a simple sandwich, shall we?

...and it's synthmaker (or is it synthedit, whatever)

.....................u n r e a s o n a b l e ..............................

but I have my reasons for not using them.

[Suspended In Dusk]

the ik ones don't even have distortion modeled so that original post was wrong from the poster anyway.

I appreciate you muting me (sincerely).

I don't know if you're referring to my post - because I mentioned that IK plug-ins seemed to put the emphasis on "distortion" and warmth. I can't tell whether they "modeled" the distortion, but if you push the input and hit the compression, you will most definitely hear "distortion".

I'm not referring to any coloration that would happen just by running the signal through the plug-in without hitting the compression. I think their Fairchild model does that, but I don't remember whether the Black or White one do.

By the way, sorry if I contributed to get this thread drifting on the subject of the 1176. That was the best example I had, but not the right one in the context of this thread.

[4damind]

IK plays at the level of the old UAD 1176/LA2A... They emulating more the behavior of the compression but not of the nonlinear distortion from the input transformers etc. There is nothing wrong with it, it works and needs not so much CPU cycles but if a "accurate emulation" is the preferred mark, than this fails.
For the 1176 comps IMO only the new UAD2 1176, Waves CLA 76 and the Softube/NI VC 76 are in the same department. If I take the price and features into the account this time NI/Softube is a clear winner (not to mention that Waves don't have a DBX 160 emulation, as far as know)...
The only thing I miss with NI/Softube is VST3 (Waves supports VST3 Afaik since V8 )

The CLA is about 289€ ($370) and sometimes cheaper because Waves has the last time a lot of specials/discounts. The NI/Softube is 199€ after the 26th.
UAD is a different story, 1176 is around $300 and all 3 comps (LA2A/DBX 160 and 1176) is about $647 (DSP card not included )

[Suspended In Dusk]

IK plays at the level of the old UAD 1176/LA2A... They emulating more the behavior of the compression but not of the nonlinear distortion from the input transformers etc. There is nothing wrong with it, it works and needs not so much CPU cycles but if a "accurate emulation" is the preferred mark, than this fails.
For the 1176 comps IMO only the new UAD2 1176, Waves CLA 76 and the Softube/NI VC 76 are in the same department. If I take the price and features into the account this time NI/Softube is a clear winner (not to mention that Waves don't have a DBX 160 emulation, as far as know)...
The only thing I miss with NI/Softube is VST3 (Waves supports VST3 Afaik since V8 )

The CLA is about 289€ ($370) and sometimes cheaper because Waves has the last time a lot of specials/discounts. The NI/Softube is 199€ after the 26th.
UAD is a different story, 1176 is around $300 and all 3 comps (LA2A/DBX 160 and 1176) is about $647 (DSP card not included )

In terms of emulating the behavior, my impression is that the emulation with IK plug-ins is also pretty vague - I've actually had much more luck using Logic's own compressor in FET mode or in Opto.

I dare say that of all the compressors I own, IK's are the only one which I can't seem to use. I tweak and I tweak and after a while it somehow vaguely sound like it's doing something. Then I bypass it, load another one - Renaissance Compressor, Logic's compressor, Focusrite's Midnight, CLA-76 and its siblings, whatever. And in a matter of seconds, the magic just happens.

So to me, IK neither gets the subtle saturation, neither the actual behavior. It colors the sound, it does something to the dynamic. Which is why I stated earlier that as far as I'm concerned, it's more like a caricature.

[bmanic]

I use humor to illustrate my point, which is that none of us really know how these plugins are made. So to say "this plugin was more intricately modeled because it has distortion" well that's just silly.

We KNOW what it DOESN'T do. That you can measure. If it doesn't do things the hardware does, like add harmonics when bypassed, have an effect on frequency response based on input/output settings, distort more when pushed harder, then you can say it's not as complete a model, and you can measure those things. That doesn't mean other companies that attempt to model this behavior automatically nailed the sound of the 1176, but IK didn't even try. It can be measured.

Not disagreeing, just saying, a bit of skepticism when dealing with these plugins is pretty healthy IMO.

We don't know if the distortion on Softube or IK compressors is a result of some complex circuit model with virtual capacitors interacting with each other,

or it could be a really simple non-linear distortion code that has nothing to do with any of that ^

which is why I think its best to simply use our ears and decide which one *sounds better* than to say which one is a more "complete model" because none of us were standing over anybodies shoulder when they were making these plugins, to verify if there are "virtual circuits" running under the hood or not, and you would never be able to guess by the sound

IMO that Waves stuff, those CLA compressors sound a bit better than the competition. I use the DCAM bundle for most of my compression, I like the way that stuff sounds for $99 for four compressors.

For the LA-2A I would get the Waves since there is no DCAM version.



edit: Also apparently Bootsie's ThrillseekerLA is one of the very best LA2A style compressors, unfortunately it is a PC only plugin.

You know, it isn't THAT difficult to analyze a plugin and find out if it's a complex model or not. There's no point in trying to make analysis of a plugin an impossible task.. it is not. Some things are hard to analyse, like the attack and release shape program dependency at a sample level but over larger chunks even this can be quite easily measured.

It's just plain fact that the IK LA2A and 1176 (and the opto one) are only basic compression models, only duplicating some of the elements like transfer function, attack and release shapes and behavior. Granted, that IS the main part of a compressor but definitely not the only important factor when it comes to vintage units.

The fairchild and pultec are far more complex models. Just load them up in plugin analyzer (or feed them your own test signals like sine sweeps and diracs, do this in stereo and check out the cross-talk/channel variation).

Cheers!
bManic

[Peter - IK Multimedia]

While character can be deduced with our eyes as mentioned above, and hibidy is right that both have good points, along the line of what hibidy said I think our ears do also tell us a lot.

Of course nobody emailed any algorithm and that was thankfully an attempt at humor... It wasn't really humorous to those that it directly insulted, though, and a person high up in responsibility for developing the code for both Black 76 and White 2A has described the process of modeling these as

many months measuring the hell out of these two classics, refining the algorithms up to maniacal precision, EVEN developing new technologies we never had before that are at the very edge of what is even possible to do with digital algorithms...

Also, the points about comparing to the real hardware are VERY valid points, and the Steven Slate shootout did a great job there (though not the same exact hardware unit which is always another factor in the comparison, still a great shootout) over at Gearslutz http://www.gearslutz.com/board/gear-sho ... la-2a.html

And back to the real units (and to veer into the 1176 debate a little bit - sorry), aside from what you'll see in that shootout about the comparison - a note made by a developer is poignant too: "You will be surprised HOW LITTLE an 1176 distorts when it's not compressing"

I just wanted to state that of course the real units were used, and the developers are proud of how they were modeled and how they sound. Obviously YMMV and opinions are your own. I wanted to make the point about comparing to the hardware units and while that might not be important to everybody it is an important facet of how we make plugins.

EDIT - and I must also note that the Opto is not just some algorithm, it is modeled after a hardware unit hand-built by one of our own (who also happens to be a go-to for Italian studios when they need their gear fixed, etc).