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foosnark
KVRAF
 
4352 posts since 9 Jan, 2003, from Saint Louis MO

Postby foosnark; Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:28 pm

TwoToneshuzz wrote:I'm feverishly demoing Trash 2. This period until the 6th of December it's at $150 so it's not far from the price of Maul.

I too like Maul. But In my IMO Trash is more interesting for creating unique sounds and fine tuning existing ones to your material. Trash module with Distortion curves editing, and distortion amount filter, Convolution with the ability to import user Impuls response files, 2x 6 band filters, delay.


I tried it. I don't think it's worth $150 either. It is just a combination of plugins I already have, without any particular magic.

The "trash" module is almost exactly Fruity Waveshaper -- something I use maybe 2% of the time or less because the sound is not great -- and the convolver is just a simple convolver with some built in stuff.

In fact, it uses standard IR .wav files that Fruity Convolver can also load, and if I were less honest I'd just use them that way and uninstall the rest. Some of those files are pretty decent, but not $150 or $250 worth of decent.
TwoToneshuzz
KVRAF
 
1538 posts since 12 Jan, 2010, from Copenhagen

Postby TwoToneshuzz; Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:44 pm

@foosnark

I hadn't mentioned if I thought it was worth $150 or not. Just that the price difference right now isn't that great between Maul, Saturn or Trash to make price the heavily deciding factor. For me I'm focusing right now if I like the way Trash 2 is working with the types of sounds I use.
I'm not as experienced with these types of tools so that's why it's getting a thorough going over. Just listened to Maul, Saturn, Trash 2 on some Maschine patterns with an audio switch moving through each of the different processors an interesting experience.

Not easy to do this type of auditing and still maintain fresh ears.

What is probably just as important as the sound quality of the different processors is how easily I can get variation and livelyness over time. Perhaps here Saturn has the edge.. Or even doing these types of arrangement specific modulations in Maschine.
Last edited by TwoToneshuzz on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
waves break, but somehow it all makes sense.
muleskinner
KVRist
 
43 posts since 7 Oct, 2002

Postby muleskinner; Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:56 am

I've been going through the same thing recently. I already own Trash 1 and am very fond of it, the upgrade price to T2 ($99) seems exorbitant though, especially when compared to what you can get it for 'new' at the moment. Whilst the upgrade looks spanking new if you really sit down and go through it it doesn't offer that many new features over T1. Loads in your own IRs, tweak the distortion curve, everything else is a much needed fresh coat of paint IMO.

So, I've been trying some of these others just to get an idea of the lay of the land. I also own Ohmicide and Kombinat. Here's what I think...

1. Saturn
The 'best' as in most kind of natural/analogue sounding of the bunch. Seems to generally preserve bass frequencies and the stereo image better. It's rather 'polite' compared to Trash and Ohmicide and to really screw things up you have to stack two instances on top of each other. No biggie that though. Dynamics section is rather limited and there's no filtering. Where it really excels is in its modulation capabilities which are awesome. I don't like the way the 'amp' distortions seem to kind of blend some kind of speaker/cab model with the actual distortion. Bit odd that. Note that for the price you could almost get Volcano 2 as well which makes for a killer filter/distortion combo. Oh yeah, it does feedback.

2. Trash 2
Extremely flexible, sounds pretty good, built in convolution and filtering. Excellent multiband dynamics section (probably my most-used part of it). Wide range of distortions but they all sound kind of similar in character to me (with a few exceptions). I know that probably sounds dumb but Trash 2 still has a bit of a 'first generation digital' sound to its distortion to my ears. It's good though. What really lets it down is the complete lack of ability to modulate the distortion module at all, bit of an oversight for a supposedly top-end distortion plug-in. Filters are good but not great. No feedback option.

3. Ohmicide
Despite the quirky interface this still has a lot going for it. You can really make it scream. The dynamics section on each band works very well despite its simplicity. There's a lot of different character to the distortions and some really weird stuff in there. The distortions do tend to veer towards the more 'digital' sounding (in a good way) but there's a few good more 'analogue' style ones in there too. You can do some really freaky shit messing with feedback and bias. It's cheap compared to the others. No filtering but at that price you could get it together with Quad Frohmage or Volcano 2. No modulation as such though you can do some cool 'preset morphing' effects controlling via MIDI (though it's a bit of a pain to set up). Don't overlook this bad boy - it has a lot going for it.

4. Maul
Probably the best sounding with Saturn in singleband mode and has great modulation capabilities. I didn't spend too long with it though as the multiband implementation is so shit, just engaging it in multiband mode makes everything sound 'phasey' and horrible. Shame.

Conclusion?

I dunno, depends on your needs. Pros and cons to all of them. If you don't own a convolution, filtering or multiband dynamics plug-in then Trash 2 is a bargain at the current price. If you do own these then its distortion module doesn't really stack up at the price they're charging for it IMO. It's a bit of a 'jack of all trades, master of none'. Saturn is the best for 'analogue sounding' distortion and modulation. Ohmicide is the best for freaky shit. As Trash 1 still works for me and I have Ohmicide as well I don't think I need to shell out any more $$ at the moment - plus I feel a little shafted by Izotope. I'll put the cash towards saving for a Sherman Filterbank 2. Hardware is the new software!
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PatchAdamz
KVRAF
 
4214 posts since 12 Nov, 2012

Postby PatchAdamz; Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:08 am

My vote is with trash 2.
You have more control over the distortion.
Also having the ability to add Impulse Responses is fantastic not to mention the multi-band compression and filtering.

Having said that, I am a big fan of FabFilter products and own most of them, they are great.

But, for my use, Trash2 is a very useful tool. :)
TwoToneshuzz
KVRAF
 
1538 posts since 12 Jan, 2010, from Copenhagen

Postby TwoToneshuzz; Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:19 am

I just deleted Saturn and Maul from my testing setup which is a percussion lead and bass arrangement.

My impression develops, I feel like Maul is missing half of what Trash 2 does. But what it does it does well enough. I particularily like the modulations implementation.

Saturn, just didn't sound as good to me as Maul or Trash 2. I like the concept, I felt alittle disturbed by the graphic of the frequency response, at first it was cool but after a while I found it a little too nervous.

Trash 2 seems like it's so fully featured that if you work with it you can do any of what the other offerings can do. I like the sound generally and don't find any fault with the quality of the Distortion. Seems like trash is the one of the bunch that offers two sets of each already very fleshed out filter and Distortion modules, plus the convolution which is something that I don't own in any of my other plugs interests me..The multiband compression, delay and limiter are nice tools to have on board. Although the delay isn't as fully features as a stand alone, it's nice that it's there when I want to keep my effects chains compact and contained for easy recall. Some Pan like control on the Delay can be achieved by modulating the spread parameter..

I really like the UI in Trash it's focused and keeps out of the way..

The save states and the undo history which hasn't been mentioned by many is the most advanced implementation that I have seen in any plug in..and 4 abcd states to compare between is slick..

Sound/effects designers dream tool..
Last edited by TwoToneshuzz on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
waves break, but somehow it all makes sense.
muleskinner
KVRist
 
43 posts since 7 Oct, 2002

Postby muleskinner; Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:20 am

I've just realised (from looking through the presets on Volcano) that you can do some really cool compression type stuff in Saturn (aside from the dynamics that's built in) by using the envelope generator/follower to modulate the gain/drive on various bands. Works really well! Shame you can't use the individual band as a source for the EF but it's still way cool - you can get a real 'saggy tube' type thing going which isn't really possible with Trash! Hmmm, lots of possibilities...
TwoToneshuzz
KVRAF
 
1538 posts since 12 Jan, 2010, from Copenhagen

Postby TwoToneshuzz; Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:59 am

muleskinner wrote:I've just realised (from looking through the presets on Volcano) that you can do some really cool compression type stuff in Saturn (aside from the dynamics that's built in) by using the envelope generator/follower to modulate the gain/drive on various bands. Works really well! Shame you can't use the individual band as a source for the EF but it's still way cool - you can get a real 'saggy tube' type thing going which isn't really possible with Trash! Hmmm, lots of possibilities...


I wish I knew what "saggy tube" was. There is side chain detection per frequency band in the multiband compressor in Trash,as well as perband envelope followers in the Filters so you should be able to achieve a similiar things to "saggy tube".
waves break, but somehow it all makes sense.
IIRs
KVRAF
 
6731 posts since 24 Mar, 2002, from sheffield, england

Postby IIRs; Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:33 am

muleskinner wrote:I've just realised (from looking through the presets on Volcano) that you can do some really cool compression type stuff in Saturn (aside from the dynamics that's built in) by using the envelope generator/follower to modulate the gain/drive on various bands.


Also transient designer type stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5FDoyt88zQ
muleskinner
KVRist
 
43 posts since 7 Oct, 2002

Postby muleskinner; Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:57 am

IIRs wrote:Also transient designer type stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5FDoyt88zQ


That's awesome mate.

I just emailed FabFilter and they got back to me within a few hours to say that taking the EF source from the individual bands is on the wish list for future updates. One little touch that would make this plug truly killer IMO.

By 'saggy tube' I mean the effect you get when you hit a tube amp hard, it kind of drains/dips in volume then returns. Difficult to explain for someone with my limited tech knowledge but it's not a straightforward compression effect. I think you could probably get close by using the EF to modulate both drive and gain.
bill45
KVRAF
 
2173 posts since 14 Jun, 2006

Postby bill45; Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:26 am

Hey muleskinner, In a behind the scenes "making of the black album" documentary,
the metallica singer,screams into a U47, the sound was exactly what your talking about, it kind of dipped, in volume, then there was this awesome distortion.
How about the uad2 fatso?
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colinssx
KVRist
 
78 posts since 4 Jan, 2012, from USA

Postby colinssx; Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:46 am

muleskinner wrote:So, I've been trying some of these others just to get an idea of the lay of the land. I also own Ohmicide and Kombinat. Here's what I think...

1. Saturn
The 'best' as in most kind of natural/analogue sounding of the bunch. Seems to generally preserve bass frequencies and the stereo image better. It's rather 'polite' compared to Trash and Ohmicide and to really screw things up you have to stack two instances on top of each other. No biggie that though. Dynamics section is rather limited and there's no filtering. Where it really excels is in its modulation capabilities which are awesome. I don't like the way the 'amp' distortions seem to kind of blend some kind of speaker/cab model with the actual distortion. Bit odd that. Note that for the price you could almost get Volcano 2 as well which makes for a killer filter/distortion combo. Oh yeah, it does feedback.

2. Trash 2
Extremely flexible, sounds pretty good, built in convolution and filtering. Excellent multiband dynamics section (probably my most-used part of it). Wide range of distortions but they all sound kind of similar in character to me (with a few exceptions). I know that probably sounds dumb but Trash 2 still has a bit of a 'first generation digital' sound to its distortion to my ears. It's good though. What really lets it down is the complete lack of ability to modulate the distortion module at all, bit of an oversight for a supposedly top-end distortion plug-in. Filters are good but not great. No feedback option.


*Applauds*

My thoughts exactly, thanks for articulating them so well. Saturn and Trash are both very good but for different reasons entirely. Saturn excels at smooth distortion and has insane modulation capabilities, whereas Trash is fantastic for completely destroying sounds and the feature set is generally larger. The thing is though, Saturn's modulation system makes it as versatile if not more versatile as a dynamics tool than Trash's compressor/gate, it just requires some ingenuity. Saturn's modulation system allows for a lot of creativity, whereas with Trash you're limited to the features that they directly give you. Trash could definitely do with a general modulation system.

So on the whole I love both of them, just for different reasons.
TwoToneshuzz
KVRAF
 
1538 posts since 12 Jan, 2010, from Copenhagen

Postby TwoToneshuzz; Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:00 pm

colinssx wrote:
muleskinner wrote:So, I've been trying some of these others just to get an idea of the lay of the land. I also own Ohmicide and Kombinat. Here's what I think...

1. Saturn
The 'best' as in most kind of natural/analogue sounding of the bunch. Seems to generally preserve bass frequencies and the stereo image better. It's rather 'polite' compared to Trash and Ohmicide and to really screw things up you have to stack two instances on top of each other. No biggie that though. Dynamics section is rather limited and there's no filtering. Where it really excels is in its modulation capabilities which are awesome. I don't like the way the 'amp' distortions seem to kind of blend some kind of speaker/cab model with the actual distortion. Bit odd that. Note that for the price you could almost get Volcano 2 as well which makes for a killer filter/distortion combo. Oh yeah, it does feedback.

2. Trash 2
Extremely flexible, sounds pretty good, built in convolution and filtering. Excellent multiband dynamics section (probably my most-used part of it). Wide range of distortions but they all sound kind of similar in character to me (with a few exceptions). I know that probably sounds dumb but Trash 2 still has a bit of a 'first generation digital' sound to its distortion to my ears. It's good though. What really lets it down is the complete lack of ability to modulate the distortion module at all, bit of an oversight for a supposedly top-end distortion plug-in. Filters are good but not great. No feedback option.


*Applauds*

My thoughts exactly, thanks for articulating them so well. Saturn and Trash are both very good but for different reasons entirely. Saturn excels at smooth distortion and has insane modulation capabilities, whereas Trash is fantastic for completely destroying sounds and the feature set is generally larger. The thing is though, Saturn's modulation system makes it as versatile if not more versatile as a dynamics tool than Trash's compressor/gate, it just requires some ingenuity. Saturn's modulation system allows for a lot of creativity, whereas with Trash you're limited to the features that they directly give you. Trash could definitely do with a general modulation system.

So on the whole I love both of them, just for different reasons.


I haven't bought either yet, but just a note I'm a speciel case here because I use Numerology almost exclusively to make my tracks. This programs is super loaded with tools to do modulation beyond anything I've ever seen. So even though Saturn has a very capable modulation implementation, it'll never do what I can do with ease in Numerology. Still think it's great how well they've done on this in Saturn. And it is a very good selling point if you don't use Numerology..
waves break, but somehow it all makes sense.
podo83
KVRist
 
116 posts since 3 Mar, 2009, from Slovakia

Postby podo83; Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:09 pm

I got Trash 2 and I personally love, very versatile...but then I am a massive Izotope fan :P

Follow meee https://soundcloud.com/lilac-moon-records
TwoToneshuzz
KVRAF
 
1538 posts since 12 Jan, 2010, from Copenhagen

Postby TwoToneshuzz; Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:34 pm

I just bought Trash 2 from JRR shop.

I know it's a beautiful program. It's very well fleshed out.

I have a couple of Days left of my trial.

I have lots of ideas about how to use distortion. I was working with it on some early renaiscance accapella choir music today. I know it's rough but I'm working on developing my understand of whats possible/impossible!

https://www.box.com/s/zd822oxedqjdauzn76o8


Distortion to me, can be soft. in that it's like a different kind of blurring of the signal from reverb, delay,flangers or phasers. It's this soft touch feel with distortion that takes me a little by suprise as from experience I'm acusstomed to distortion being used with heavy metal or rock and roll and often played Loud so I associate distortion with Loud and Painful. But on reflection it seems that distortion actually makes loud signals more bearable for the listener by creating a kind of smearing of the frequencies around a broader part of the spectrum. So when distorted signals are played at low volume they are positively velvety. For me it's a study for sure. So I'll just blunder into it and experiment. Which means this could be one LONG learning process. One thing though the manual though clear enough is not big on tips or discriptions of what the various patches in Trash are intended to do and be appropriate for..
waves break, but somehow it all makes sense.
User avatar
ariston
KVRAF
 
3384 posts since 28 Jun, 2009, from Wherever I lay my hat

Postby ariston; Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:53 am

TwoToneshuzz wrote: One thing though the manual though clear enough is not big on tips or discriptions of what the various patches in Trash are intended to do and be appropriate for..


Although I've had it for a bit now, I've only just gone through some of the presets. I find them a bit baffling, to be honest. The "subtle" folder holds presets that are anything but subtle, for example.

I can understand why someone who just flicks through the presets will be disappointed. They don't do a very good job of showing off what Trash can do. Then again, using presets for an effect that's so heavily dependent on the source material and the overall mix intention seems kind of pointless to me anyway, but your calorie intake may vary.
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