It's not all about crosstalk. I think Waves concluded that there are just subtle differences between channels because of the slight inconsistencies in parts (and the different drift rates of different parts away from spec over time).
For some reason they think these inconsistencies, when summed into the master channel, create some kind of sweetening effect on the audio. I'm sure they have a more technical way of explaining it, but I think that's the the gist of it. I can't comment on whether Quinto Sardo or Steven Slate have made accommodations for the same phenomenon.
Console emulation plugins = necessary?
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- KVRAF
- 5524 posts since 5 May, 2007 from Mars Colony
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- KVRian
- 676 posts since 24 May, 2011 from los angeles
actually i think so far only stripbus is interlinked I know NLS is not and satson is not. but i think so far stripbus is the only one where each instance effects the otherdalor wrote:In my understanding and terribly simplified, console emus do really four things: Compression, Saturation, Cross-talk and adding noise. With many console emus, all these components are interlinked and influence each other.
Many single VST compressors have some kind of inbuilt saturation anyway when pushed hard. For example, the Waves API compressors do saturate (when driving hard) and also add optional noise. Adding console emus and driving them hard is then like doubling up, which might be a good or bad thing, depending on the music style. IMO, I think the key of using console emus in general is to be as subtle as possible, especially if there's already other compressors/saturators in the effect chain.
Cross-talk is something I can completely live without and find nothing nice about it, again just my 2c.
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- KVRAF
- 16373 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Satson is the gentlest of the console emulations. It seems to me like it's the closest to being just a crosstalk and summing emulator, although it doesn't have as much impact on the sound as the Dangerous 2-Bus does, which itself is pretty gentle as far as hardware summing boxes go.
NLS and VCC add so much else besides just the crosstalk and summing that they're hard to evaluate in this context. I really want the new Waves REDD.
NLS and VCC add so much else besides just the crosstalk and summing that they're hard to evaluate in this context. I really want the new Waves REDD.
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- KVRAF
- 16373 posts since 22 Nov, 2000 from Southern California
Then what is Satson doing?jam92189 wrote:actually i think so far only stripbus is interlinked I know NLS is not and satson is not. but i think so far stripbus is the only one where each instance effects the other
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- KVRAF
- 6425 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden
I threw the NLS buss-thingy in a mix, just as a quick test - and yes it does produce a lovely shimmer sparkle kind of - but far too much bass boost for that mix. Been working really hard to get that right and it did too much.
So I feel it needs to be there from start. Not be thrown in as an effect at a later point.
I will surely try it thoroughly - with the track inserts as well.
To be used as an effect I think Kramer Master Tape is really nice.
Bit curious on the new REDD - since I found that the warmifiers does not work as well on all material.
You need a collection of tools it seems.
So I feel it needs to be there from start. Not be thrown in as an effect at a later point.
I will surely try it thoroughly - with the track inserts as well.
To be used as an effect I think Kramer Master Tape is really nice.
Bit curious on the new REDD - since I found that the warmifiers does not work as well on all material.
You need a collection of tools it seems.
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- KVRAF
- 15135 posts since 7 Sep, 2008
The answer is in the question.
If you're looking to emulate a console, they're necessary.
If not, they're not.
If you're looking to emulate a console, they're necessary.
If not, they're not.
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- KVRian
- 1099 posts since 30 Oct, 2005
well written -and thats exactly why I dont need any console emus /because already have enough of mentioned fx/dalor wrote:In my understanding and terribly simplified, console emus do really four things: Compression, Saturation, Cross-talk and adding noise. With many console emus, all these components are interlinked and influence each other.
agree again - crosstalk is pure artifact /same with noise,wow&flutter etc.../ which should be avoided if possible...same analog crap as jitter or aliasing in digitaldalor wrote: Cross-talk is something I can completely live without and find nothing nice about it, again just my 2c.
overall it makes me laughing when some people think that adding the worst analog crap make their records more sixties like...simply wrong expectations
music of 60s and 70s was sometimes excellent - but mainly because of excellent people - not the recording consoles
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- KVRian
- 676 posts since 24 May, 2011 from los angeles
satso has xtalk and saturation with the gainstaging of that input they dont interact but the bus mode is very nice sounding. NLS will null if you get two of the same instances with the same audio track. strip will not nul if you duplicate a track and put the same instance in and phase flip they do not phase. why because each instance takes up the "headroom" of the console like a real console basically making it analog like summing. also the x talk option is something you can add but its off by defult that way you dont get phase issues.Uncle E wrote:Then what is Satson doing?jam92189 wrote:actually i think so far only stripbus is interlinked I know NLS is not and satson is not. but i think so far stripbus is the only one where each instance effects the other
i dont know about VCC
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- KVRian
- 676 posts since 24 May, 2011 from los angeles
ha nebula with there crazy cpu loadB.A.Tech. wrote:If it'necessary,it could be Nebula,i guess..
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- KVRian
- 678 posts since 15 Feb, 2012 from France
You have to mix from scratch into this console emus to make them relevant. They're useless otherwise.
You may find yourself using less EQ and compression and get to a good sounding mix quicker and easier. The non-linearities they generate makes the mix's sweet spot less narrow than it is with the unforgiving perfect DAW summing. They force you to gain-stage properly, which is crucial even in an 100% ITB mix.
Wether you decide to push them so that the saturation is noticeable/obvious is up to you, you can also run them clean and still get benefits from using them.
You may find yourself using less EQ and compression and get to a good sounding mix quicker and easier. The non-linearities they generate makes the mix's sweet spot less narrow than it is with the unforgiving perfect DAW summing. They force you to gain-stage properly, which is crucial even in an 100% ITB mix.
Wether you decide to push them so that the saturation is noticeable/obvious is up to you, you can also run them clean and still get benefits from using them.
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- KVRian
- 676 posts since 24 May, 2011 from los angeles
nilhartman wrote:You have to mix from scratch into this console emus to make them relevant. They're useless otherwise.
You may find yourself using less EQ and compression and get to a good sounding mix quicker and easier. The non-linearities they generate makes the mix's sweet spot less narrow than it is with the unforgiving perfect DAW summing. They force you to gain-stage properly, which is crucial even in an 100% ITB mix.
Wether you decide to push them so that the saturation is noticeable/obvious is up to you, you can also run them clean and still get benefits from using them.
exactly
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Brian @ IK Multimedia Brian @ IK Multimedia https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=249743
- KVRian
- 1042 posts since 6 Feb, 2011
My experience is that adding subtle layers of saturation and stress at different stages in the mix creates added depth and excitement.
Whether it is a console channel, or a tube compressor/limiting amplifier like we model in T-RackS, preamp model, etc, the principles are the same. The most important factors seem to be where in the signal chain you place it, and that it is dynamic. You don't want to have distortion on everything at all times. But when you get a little distortion when a vocalist holds a scream, or a touch of splatter on a hard snare hit, these little events taking place independently of the other tracks around them seems to act as cues to our ears that a) these events are existing in their own space within the mix, and b) that the sound that is distorting is 'loud.' It gives a little extra excitement to a mix that just isn't there in a pristine and digitally sterile recording. Now of course we're doing this digitally, but it's being done through algorithms meant to mimic very undigital behavior. Some of us have spent many years perfecting these types of algorithms, and those nuances in the dynamic behavior does indeed lend to a more organic sounding record.
Whether it is a console channel, or a tube compressor/limiting amplifier like we model in T-RackS, preamp model, etc, the principles are the same. The most important factors seem to be where in the signal chain you place it, and that it is dynamic. You don't want to have distortion on everything at all times. But when you get a little distortion when a vocalist holds a scream, or a touch of splatter on a hard snare hit, these little events taking place independently of the other tracks around them seems to act as cues to our ears that a) these events are existing in their own space within the mix, and b) that the sound that is distorting is 'loud.' It gives a little extra excitement to a mix that just isn't there in a pristine and digitally sterile recording. Now of course we're doing this digitally, but it's being done through algorithms meant to mimic very undigital behavior. Some of us have spent many years perfecting these types of algorithms, and those nuances in the dynamic behavior does indeed lend to a more organic sounding record.
