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valhallasound
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3411 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:48 pm

BDeep wrote:
Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:I keep trying to figure out exactly why that is, i.e. why VeeThree is wider.

Well, shouldn't you know ?! you programmed the damn thing ! :P
I sometimes am under the impression that designing reverbs is something of a black art. Hard to master, full of hidden mysteries, and always subject of some debate.


I know WHAT I programmed, from a technical standpoint. I just don't understand the WHY, from a psychoacoustic standpoint.

Most textbooks will describe interaural correlation, or room acoustics. There are no papers out there about "bouncing something back and forth really fast inside of an allpass loop." These older reverbs are danged primitive, and are still (kinda) secret, so I haven't seen any academic papers that describe *why* these things sound good.

Sean Costello
BDeep
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2656 posts since 13 Feb, 2012, from Amsterdam

Postby BDeep; Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:11 pm

:) Yeah I understood that, it's not like you don't know what you're doing (quite the contrary). Probably should've added a big wink after my post ;)

Here it goes: :wink:
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valhallasound
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3411 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:56 am

BDeep wrote::) Yeah I understood that, it's not like you don't know what you're doing (quite the contrary). Probably should've added a big wink after my post ;)

Here it goes: :wink:


No winks necessary! Reverb programming is still kinda mysterious to me, which is why it is interesting!

Sean Costello
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Tp3
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2090 posts since 7 Feb, 2007

Postby Tp3; Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:00 pm

valhallasound wrote:
Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:I keep trying to figure out exactly why that is, i.e. why VeeThree is wider.

Well, shouldn't you know ?! you programmed the damn thing ! :P
I know WHAT I programmed, from a technical standpoint. I just don't understand the WHY, from a psychoacoustic standpoint.

Well, as the Merovingian said ("Matrix Reloaded")

"Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the 'why.' 'Why' is what separates us from them, you from me. 'Why' is the only real source of power, without it you are powerless"

:)
What is best ? How do you define 'best'? If you're talking about what you can think, what you can feel, what you can listen and hear, then 'best' is simply marketing signals (ie. hype) interpreted by your brain.
henge
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38 posts since 3 Feb, 2009

Postby henge; Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:10 pm

Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:
Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:I keep trying to figure out exactly why that is, i.e. why VeeThree is wider.

Well, shouldn't you know ?! you programmed the damn thing ! :P
I know WHAT I programmed, from a technical standpoint. I just don't understand the WHY, from a psychoacoustic standpoint.

Well, as the Merovingian said ("Matrix Reloaded")

"Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the 'why.' 'Why' is what separates us from them, you from me. 'Why' is the only real source of power, without it you are powerless"

:)


Why?
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mandolarian
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2780 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from Raincoast of Grayland

Postby mandolarian; Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:20 pm

henge wrote:
Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:
Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:I keep trying to figure out exactly why that is, i.e. why VeeThree is wider.

Well, shouldn't you know ?! you programmed the damn thing ! :P
I know WHAT I programmed, from a technical standpoint. I just don't understand the WHY, from a psychoacoustic standpoint.

Well, as the Merovingian said ("Matrix Reloaded")

"Our only hope, our only peace is to understand it, to understand the 'why.' 'Why' is what separates us from them, you from me. 'Why' is the only real source of power, without it you are powerless"

:)


Why?


Why not?
perception: the stuff reality is made of.
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valhallasound
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3411 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:27 pm

Tp3 wrote:
valhallasound wrote:The VeeThree algorithms have the spatial mixing "baked into" the algorithm, and it pretty much always bounces back and forth between left and right channels. Which has nothing to do with how a "real" room works, but helps things to sound nice and wide.

Sean Costello

That's funny.... that's EXACTLY whet Matt (the developer of Reverberate) said in a discussion I was involved here. he also said that the modulation has "nothing to do with how a 'real' room works" (or something similar), but he found that users loved this affect when it comes to Reverbs, so he keeps it like that...


Some people (including myself, in the past) have argued that the delay line modulation in algorithmic reverbs emulates the speed of sound changes found in large acoustic spaces, due to temperature variation. I have come to the conclusion that this probably isn't true. The speed of sound variations WILL produce some sort of time variation, but probably not chorusing type changes.

This is one of the things I like about ValhallaVintageVerb: There is no pretense that this is a "real" room. The algorithms are weird things, based around a few fairly simple topologies. Small changes to these simple topologies result in big sonic changes. The chorusing in the Concert Hall sounds nothing like a real concert hall, but it sounds great on electronic instruments.

Of course, ValhallaShimmer could be described in the same way, if not even more so. Same with ÜberMod. Both of those plugins are very "unreal." ValhallaVintageVerb is only "real" in the sense that I was trying to capture some of the sound of older hardware, that is "real" hardware with an "unreal" sound.

Sean Costello
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mandolarian
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2780 posts since 2 Feb, 2005, from Raincoast of Grayland

Postby mandolarian; Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:42 am

From my indoor/outdoor and mystical musical experiences, I feel that reality and the 'real' rooms it lives in are overrated. To me, the entire 'stereo' sound field playback system is like a cheap psychoacoutic parlor trick that requires a walk over the suspension bridge of disbelief.

Sure there's a place for the purist audiophile approach to record a fleeting performance of Debussy's 5th tone cycle for croissants and ukulele in real time in real space, with a purist pair of DPA/Scheops mics on a Jecklin Disk or other 'pure stereo' technique, attempting to map 3D space into the 2D bottle of playback without a hint of facetious facsimile.

It seems to me though, ITB, we crave better than just 'real' reality. We strive for transcendent perception-warping verbs of sensual captivation that swing their illusory tails from the future past while exquisitely modulating into the now. Encompassing our sounds and words with the impossibility of being an illusion of a wider truth, a deeper rush of time and lush places, that feel more vividly real and complete than the dry reality we put on the timeline when we started the project. It's why I turn to algorithmic verbs, and Valhalla in particular, when 'reality' alone just isn't enough.

YMMV. I'm a reverb whore and never heard a V3 reflection that I wouldn't want to hear again, repeatedly, until it melts into the noise floor of eternity.
perception: the stuff reality is made of.
Melvin J.
KVRist
 
93 posts since 2 Dec, 2005

Postby Melvin J.; Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:00 am

Wow, Mando. Nice post!! Beautiful words about reverb.
ontol
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1120 posts since 29 Jun, 2012

Postby ontol; Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:55 am xds

:borg:
Last edited by ontol on Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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valhallasound
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3411 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:32 pm

I have a new OSX beta of ValhallaVintageVerb available, if any current VeeThree users wish to test it (full version only, no demo). The beta is designed to address a few issues that users have reported. Send me an email if you want to test it.

Sean Costello
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valhallasound
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3411 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:09 pm

I got a Window beta of VeeThree ready to test now, so both OSX and Windows users are covered. If you are a current user of the full version (not the demo version), email me or PM me with your email, and I'll hook you up with the beta.

Sean Costello
hibidy
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42594 posts since 20 Dec, 2005

Postby hibidy; Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:17 pm

What has changed?
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valhallasound
KVRAF
 
3411 posts since 14 Nov, 2006, from Pacific NW

Postby valhallasound; Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:04 pm

hibidy wrote:What has changed?


Some of the initialization code, in order to deal with some reported bugs. Nothing new or sexy has been added (i.e. no new reverb modes).

Sean Costello
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Sampleconstruct
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13895 posts since 12 Oct, 2008, from Here and there

Postby Sampleconstruct; Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:07 pm

Just tested the new Beta for about 30 minutes, all fine so far, no crashes, no noise bursts or other anomalities. Just before I installed the new build I had a Logic crash when loading an instance of VVV on a Bus.
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