High quality audio morphing effect plugin, why it doesn't exist yet?

[mandolarian]

I know that Barry Truax was using similar techniques in 1986.
Sean Costello

Hey, he was my professor way back then. He also did some very weird morphing things involving tape decks, a Buchla, POD and a rented grand piano, but I promised not to tell.

[valhallasound]

I know that Barry Truax was using similar techniques in 1986.
Sean Costello

Hey, he was my professor way back then.

Cool! Is he still teaching? I read all of his papers back in the day. Before Curtis Roads published "Microsound," this granular stuff was only found in a bunch of random papers.

He also did some very weird morphing things involving tape decks, a Buchla, POD and a rented grand piano, but I promised not to tell.

The morphing that dare not speak its name...

[monas]

@ valhallasound
thanks for sharing these insights! i am super excited to see what spectral tools you come up with!!
with morphing i think you're right. we probably have to wait for a small developer who is enthusiastic enough about it to come up with something. luckily there's plenty of small companys out there that explore new territory in digital sound, and they seem to be becoming more and more. i also agree that all these methods aren't so very new in academia. they are just unexplored by the industry because they don't promise much profit.

@ FabianTDM
yes, i think freq domain could probably be completely avoided as you say. i remember playing around with metasynth, where you can send white noise through a filter mask you derived from a soundfile. the result is almost identical to the original soundfile. that might be a possibility as well.

[blacktomcat666]

@valhallasound: Mhhh.. The longer I think about morphing, the more I doubt that spectrum trickery is even relevant at all. My starting point would probably be a kind of wideband cross-vocooder (where on both try to approximate the level behaviour of the other "side"). This would "print" the dynamic behaviour of source A into source B. And the other way around. Finally, a simple cross-fade mixes both sides. If this works as expected, more bands would probably improve the effect.

I tried something similar in my Audio-Term Software, but this section is still very "basic" at the moment and the results are not as impressive as one might assume. It depends much on the signals you put in. I already used it in some of my tracks, but it's far from being a "morphing" and even more far from being a real time tool:

Some randomly chosen samples mangled:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/26 ... thesis.mp3

One track time frozen at the end and then multiplied with the intro choir loop of the following track:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/11/26 ... iplied.mp3

[mandolarian]

I know that Barry Truax was using similar techniques in 1986.
Sean Costello

Hey, he was my professor way back then.

Cool! Is he still teaching? I read all of his papers back in the day. Before Curtis Roads published "Microsound," this granular stuff was only found in a bunch of random papers.

Yes, still teaching, as far as I know. But, seems he has morphed into an older distinguished professor in his rush to push the academic envelope.

He has a website too: http://www.sfu.ca/~truax/

He also did some very weird morphing things involving tape decks, a Buchla, POD and a rented grand piano, but I promised not to tell.

The morphing that dare not speak its name...

Originally the name was Steinway, but when the rental company found out about the 'procedure' it became Kawai. Oh...I've said too much.

[deastman]

Kyma does the same thing. Using the Tau editor, you add warp markers to specific features in one sound file, and then match those up with equivalent features in the other sound. This allows the sounds to stretch into position as the system gradually crossfades between them.

Are you sure its crossfading?
I have a Kyma and am sure its not.

List of features
In the Tau Editor you can:

•Time-align multiple files
•Match or transform the frequency, amplitude, and formant envelopes of files •Morph across two, three or more sounds
•Record your real time transformations on disk for later editing
•Create an entire library of synthesis patches at the touch of a button (Galleries)
•Test the mix and morphing combinations in real time as you are editing
•Analyze a new sound by simply dragging it and dropping it into the editor
•Morph without time-smearing or "robotic" comb filtering effects
•Edit with complete freedom, knowing that you have unlimited undos

I think I gave the wrong impression. No, I don't think Kyma is doing a simple crossfade. Obviously they are using more complex FFT transformations. My point was more that this is coupled with the manual correlation of feature points.

And yes, Alchemy also has warp markers. I've never been particularly satisfied with any morph I've attempted with it. If anyone has some good examples, I'd love to hear them.

[deastman]

I think we are in this thread talking about more than one thing, just partly ovarlapping issues, but which, if we do not separate, can lead to not-that- fruitful-debate. Some (those who may know more about technology) try to figure out and describe some kind of "morhping theory" and they can list number of reasons why this complete final real-time morphing plugin is not possible to achieve. Others, such as myself, will just send a POSITIVE signal to developers, "please research this area", "we'd like to see this kind of application", I trust that by r&d manufacturers find new innovations/implications behind/beside the theory we do not know yet, and more importantly, new applications to the existing theory, if they just spend time with this app. dev. I think is rather useless in advance to judge the application impossible. As said, for me is enough, for starters, if I got a plugin like the Prosonic Morph for Windows (wich doesn't exist today), and as the next step maybe a new more innoavative interface and maybe better sound quality etc. etc. Very often the breakthrough innovations are more new application of the existing theory than any new sicientific findings - e.g. main innovation in tablet/finger computer is in the new kind of user experience, the touch screen technology has existed relative long time. H.

To me, this just sounds like wishful thinking. Can't be bothered with all this technical talk about algorithms? Maybe if we just send out enough positive vibes, one of these plugin developers will finally get off their lazy ass and invent some revolutionary, groundbreaking technique for creating flawless morphs between two real-time audio streams.

While we're at it, why hasn't anyone built a giant spaceship capable of transporting us to the other end of the universe in the blink of an eye? You know it can be done! Those lazy scientists are simply more interested in blabbing on about the cosmic speed limit and boring stuff like that. All we need is some fundamental new science and we're on our way!

[recursive one]

Hmmm no I'm afraid a simple preset morph would only volume-cross fade between the two presets, and not truly and harmonically morph into each other.

Ok, guess you would have to automate the parameters between presets then.... Only not sure if it would be worth the time, that's gonna be really messy...

Linplug MorphoX synth has very elegant way to handle that. You dial all synth knobs for patch A, then dial patch B, then use modwheel to smoothly change all parameters from patch A to pacth B at the same time. This is a synth rather than an effect or sampler, so it can not handle external audio and it's not exacly what OP needs, but is cool for morphing sounds nevertheless.

Sorry if someone has allready mentioned MorphoX here, I did not read all 7 pages.

[Cutlunch]

http://www.cantabilesoftware.com

This is not a vst but it can morph

[Harry_HH]

yes!
this threads been open for a week now and we still dont have a free plugin that can take any two sounds i can dream of and morph them in a natural sounding way!

what a world!!

Strange comment. Who has expected this (than maybe you)? And why it should be free of charge? For me it's OK if some manufacturer can launch this by the end of this year, on my behalf I'm willing to pay about the same amount than the Prosonic Morph costs. Or in the best case: some developer tells us that they have morphing plugin for Windows already in their production line. H.

[whyterabbyt]

http://www.cantabilesoftware.com

This is not a vst but it can morph

correction; it can crossfade parameters of hosted plugins.

[whyterabbyt]

We need less talking about theories and books (let the programmer-experts have their own discussion boards) and more developers who flag for new initiatives of morphing plugins and/or examples of the present applications, if there's one. H.

exactly who do you think you're speaking for when you say 'we' ??

[whyterabbyt]

Strange comment. Who has expected this (than maybe you)? And why it should be free of charge? For me it's OK if some manufacturer can launch this by the end of this year, on my behalf I'm willing to pay about the same amount than the Prosonic Morph costs.

you're giving them nearly a whole year to do your bidding? your generosity knows no bounds.

[Harry_HH]

Strange comment. Who has expected this (than maybe you)? And why it should be free of charge? For me it's OK if some manufacturer can launch this by the end of this year, on my behalf I'm willing to pay about the same amount than the Prosonic Morph costs.

you're giving them nearly a whole year to do your bidding? your generosity knows no bounds.

Well, if you have followed the discussion at all, you notice that this "morhping" is not an idea found out yesterday, even concerning the audio vst plugins, developers have had about 20 years to do r&d and implement morphing applications. As said in this thread, for me it's enough as first step that we get Prosonic Morph for Windows or equivalent. I think this is not too much asked. H.

[whyterabbyt]

you're giving them nearly a whole year to do your bidding? your generosity knows no bounds.

Well, if you have followed the discussion at all, you notice that this "morhping" is not an idea found out yesterday, even concerning the audio vst plugins, developers have had about 20 years to do r&d and implement morphing applications.

Well, if you'd followed the discussion at all, without the 'hey ignore the conversations about the actual technology, just demand it' attitude, you'd have realised that its not as straightforward as you think it is.

As said in this thread, for me it's enough as first step that we get Prosonic Morph for Windows or equivalent. I think this is not too much asked. H.

on what planet do you think 'i want X, someone needs to go and invest their time and effort for me so I can have what I want, and soon' is 'not too much'

tell you what; you invest a year's worth of funding in a developer, and then it'll maybe not be too much to ask.

http://www.surroundsfx.com/forum/viewto ... f=20&t=825