Another company without a demo version, no refunds and Win x86 only

[Compyfox]

I think there is recently a trend to create plugins, ask for a certain ammount of money, but refuse the user to give a proper chance to test unless you purchase it. And on top of all that, skim the user of a proper refund.

Maybe on the long run, this is a topic for "Everything else (Music)", but for starters, it fits well in here.




Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

While I don't disregard the idea of "monitoring your used time" for a production, I highly question everything else resolving around it.

I don't even go into the fact, that HOFA offers a just as comfortable plugin, which is cross platform, in form of the free HOFA 4U plugins for quite a while now (since early 2012 IIRC, without any need for C/P schemes - I'm using it, it's a nice add-on, I'm liking it). Competition is good for business.



The points that are clearly annoying me, and give me a red flag to even consider plugins by such companies (or this particular developer in question), are the following:

- the plugins in question are are 32bit Windows only (there is no listing if this is SynthEdit/FlowStone/etc or native code - the basic GUI elements are however known in the "freeware realm")
- there are no demos for either plugins other than audio demos
- the homepage in this example clearly states among "Terms and Conditions", I quote: "No refunds possible ! No products purchased here may be resold in part or in whole or redistributed for any reason. Each order is in the form of a digital download that is privately emailed to you!"
- the installation is "password locked". Which I've rarely seen on the market, unless it's a password protected ZIP during beta stage, or a regular serial key system that is handled during the installation process.

At this day and age - absolute red flags IMO.
Especially if you're new into the VST game. And this isn't even about any C/P scheme that people have constant hate-fests about.


I already have severe problems with purchasing plugins in order to test them (Sonimus and Sknote comes to mind), but at least these companies offer a refund (not sure on Sonimus - gave up on them; no questions asked return policy for Sknote). Not so in this example.




Which brings me to the following question(s):
Why can developers assume, that it is okay and worth to ask for money (which is their right to do so, no doubt), but in return cut the user of all(!) rights? Like with a missing demo, no resale and/or refund?

Why is there a need to support/defend such companies in the first place?



I already hear this argument, but this is by no means a "no brainer". Not only is this (IMO) stupid to support such behavior. It is also an unnecessary waste of money, should you decide to not use this plugin after all. Or should you realize "wait, it doesn't work in my host".

We all know the negative backlash that usually follows that - cracked software releases, negative critism (areas: customer support, user handling), hatefests at webboards, etc.


This is a troubling trend - so please, don't encourage more developers to go that route. If there is such constant uproar about C/P schemes, we shouldn't ignore these just mentioned occurrences as well.

Either of the following ways should always(!) be possible.
A demo released within a timely manner (looking at you Steinberg/Yamaha, or the recently released Vengeance Sound plugins), a no-questions-asked refund, a resale policy (which is legal in the EU either way, see the Market Place discussion about this topic).



This thread is food for thought.
Please think about it, contribute and stay friendly.

[Teksonik]

Certainly the free market will work in these instances ? If somebody is stupid enough to buy something with no demo and no refund then they deserve to get burned. Are there enough stupid people to make such a business model profitable and sustainable ? I'll leave you to answer that for yourself.........

[Sendy]

One of my pet peeves is wishy washy descriptions of what the plugin does. A recent blurb from a company that I've liked and bought a few plugins from in the past, described an effect that (I'm paraphrasing) "Added a mystic vibe and shamanic feeling to your audio". Just tell me what the plugin does, I'm an engineer not a child! It's not like you have to give away your trade secrets, but at the very least hint at what the internal signal flow is doing!

[hibidy]

Well, it's 5 bucks. I mean, I wouldn't buy anything that isn't x64 so it's of little matter to me. I think if it was 100 bucks that original post would sit better with me but......it's 5 bucks.

[ghettosynth]

Well, it's 5 bucks. I mean, I wouldn't buy anything that isn't x64 so it's of little matter to me. I think if it was 100 bucks that original post would sit better with me but......it's 5 bucks.

Yeah no doubt. It's JUST A FIVER!

[Tricky-Loops]

Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

Is it a joke? I have a clock in my computer (and another on my cupboard) and I could simply write the used time for my projects in a CALC (or EXCEL) table and make an elaborated statistic out of it. Why should I pay 5 EUR for a simple stop watch?

[Compyfox]

One of my pet peeves is wishy washy descriptions of what the plugin does. ... It's not like you have to give away your trade secrets, but at the very least hint at what the internal signal flow is doing!

A main critism I threw towards a lot of companies.
Offer a manual to download that offers more than just the information how to install things.

Positive examples are people like TokyoDawn, Klanghelm, Variety of Sound - complete with technical data (as it was back in the day). Absolute negative examples are companies like Crysonic, where up until this day is no proper documentation for their Exciter.

I think if it was 100 bucks that original post would sit better with me but......it's 5 bucks.

Yeah no doubt. It's JUST A FIVER!

I think you clearly overread my point regarding finances. It is not about how much this thing is costing. To some, they won't care if it's 5 EUR or 20EUR or even 100 EUR. That is not the point!

The point is, that if you pay for something without a demo, a refund and/or even resale policy... you clearly agree to and support the scheming of the developer. This is IMO not the least okay. We as users should have the power over that - or at least have an option (demo, manual, refund, etc).

So my logical solution is... no matter how much or how less it's actually costing - doesn't matter - I am not(!) supporting this. And neither should you. Yet if you do, this cycle will never end. And I do have a feeling that it is getting worse in the next couple of years.

Food for though, people.
Though I appreciate the input - you people talk and think about it.

Is it a joke? I have a clock in my computer (and another on my cupboard) and I could simply write the used time for my projects in a CALC (or EXCEL) table and make an elaborated statistic out of it.

Such "Time Clocks" are actually good to have visually, or run in the background to monitor how much time you're really spent. Of course this can be handled with manual schemes (Excel/Calc and a proper clock). It's a convenience thing.

There is a free alternative on the market. But that is not the point of this thread, in whether or not this plugin should exist in the first place. I think I made that pretty clear.

The point is everything resolving around it.
Finances, Demos, Documentation, etc.

[hibidy]

Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

Is it a joke? I have a clock in my computer (and another on my cupboard) and I could simply write the used time for my projects in a CALC (or EXCEL) table and make an elaborated statistic out of it. Why should I pay 5 EUR for a simple stop watch?

stop watch
comin' atcha
five bucks
trying to catcha

dem fools
wastin' their cash
policies
waitin' to bash

so don't be fooled by the sucka punch
save yo' cash and make a bunch
why buy a stopwatch
when you can buy a sandwich g, and chips that go crunch.

[ghettosynth]

Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

Is it a joke? I have a clock in my computer (and another on my cupboard) and I could simply write the used time for my projects in a CALC (or EXCEL) table and make an elaborated statistic out of it. Why should I pay 5 EUR for a simple stop watch?

I can see it, perhaps the clock only runs when your transport is running. In effect, it's measuring the cumulative amount of time that you are actually working on the track. Of course, I don't care. I think that a good effort at something like this might be useful to folks who bill their studio time, but it's probably not worth the hassle. I once wrote a set of unix scripts to do something similar for my work. You would type clockin <projectname> and it would add an entry to a csv file. When you were done working, clockout <projectname>. There was no need to actually manage project names, you just made them up as you went and if you mistyped it, you would have two entries in the output report. It did check that you were clocking out to something that was clocked in though. This was useful because I'd switch back and forth among projects throughout the day and I didn't have to think much about the process. Just clock in and out at will, then at the end of the month I had another program that ran a billing report. Took me all of an hour or so to write and debug and it saved me hours of mucking about trying to tally up billing times for my work.

Little things like that can be useful and certainly worth $5 to someone. I would have paid $5 to save the hour if someone else had written the exact same thing. I can see this thing being more useful if it writes the running time out to a file that you can then calculate a detailed billing report for each project. I suspect, however, that there are better ways to do this than to make it a plugin.

[ghettosynth]

Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

Is it a joke? I have a clock in my computer (and another on my cupboard) and I could simply write the used time for my projects in a CALC (or EXCEL) table and make an elaborated statistic out of it. Why should I pay 5 EUR for a simple stop watch?

stop watch
comin' atcha
five bucks
trying to catcha

dem fools
wastin' their cash
policies
waitin' to bash

so don't be fooled by the sucka punch
save yo' cash and make a bunch
why buy a stopwatch
when you can buy a sandwich g, and chips that go crunch.

I love it,

Boomp ba Cha, ba doomp a doomp Cha,
Boomp ba Cha, ba doomp a doomp Cha.

Can ya feel me G?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, you don't get fooled again!

[hibidy]

I think if it was 100 bucks that original post would sit better with me but......it's 5 bucks.

Yeah no doubt. It's JUST A FIVER!

I think you clearly overread my point regarding finances. It is not about how much this thing is costing. To some, they won't care if it's 5 EUR or 20EUR or even 100 EUR. That is not the point!

The point is, that if you pay for something without a demo, a refund and/or even resale policy... you clearly agree to and support the scheming of the developer. This is IMO not the least okay. We as users should have the power over that - or at least have an option (demo, manual, refund, etc).

So my logical solution is... no matter how much or how less it's actually costing - doesn't matter - I am not(!) supporting this. And neither should you. Yet if you do, this cycle will never end. And I do have a feeling that it is getting worse in the next couple of years.

Food for though, people.
Though I appreciate the input - you people talk and think about it.

Well, I'm for truth and justice as well, I'm just surprised that this thread got started over this. Like I said, I bought the sominus stuff and I'm pretty damn happy with it.

[hibidy]

Just a minute ago, I saw this on KVR's Product Database:
http://www.kvraudio.com/product/virtual ... l-products

Is it a joke? I have a clock in my computer (and another on my cupboard) and I could simply write the used time for my projects in a CALC (or EXCEL) table and make an elaborated statistic out of it. Why should I pay 5 EUR for a simple stop watch?

stop watch
comin' atcha
five bucks
trying to catcha

dem fools
wastin' their cash
policies
waitin' to bash

so don't be fooled by the sucka punch
save yo' cash and make a bunch
why buy a stopwatch
when you can buy a sandwich g, and chips that go crunch.

I love it,

Boomp ba Cha, ba doomp a doomp Cha,
Boomp ba Cha, ba doomp a doomp Cha.

Can ya feel me G?

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, you don't get fooled again!

That's right haha!

[Compyfox]

Well, I'm for truth and justice as well, I'm just surprised that this thread got started over this. Like I said, I bought the sominus stuff and I'm pretty damn happy with it.

It's just one among several developers recently - and I felt the need to point it out as general topic.

To get people to think - food for thought is all I'm doing here.

[Jace-BeOS]

I have a lot of complaints about computer industry policies and it starts at software. EULA, lack of warranty, lack of returns (in most but not all software), and the way people are forced into buying upgrades to (maybe) get fixes to stuff that doesn't work consistently, well, or at all. This example Compyfox brings up fits in nicely with my impression of the software industry being all about abusing consumers. The companies with good consumer policies are the exception. It has gotten worse over the years, starting at the invention of the EULA. If you look back far enough, software actually came warranted. Today? Forget it. The entire risk of the sale is on the consumer (it says as much in most EULAs) and average users don't usually know this until after they have tried to seek remedy. Tech people seem to have picked up on it, but they also seem to have been indoctrinated into accepting it as... well... acceptable practice. It's not.

[hibidy]

@abusing customers: There are a fair share of people that fanboi up to companies that have done a lot of people wrong. Cakewalk is tops in this category, followed by imageline. But they do demos, so I guess they don't count here.

Gems are companies like ableton which I know if I wanted to sell right now, I could put it up for sale, and by the beginning of next week I'd have cash and ableton would do the transfer. (no I'm not selling live, just saying) I'd give away my sonar account if it was legal. For free! They won't even do that.