KVR Audio

jontah · Post by **jontah** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:45 pm

Hey,

I've been very interested in making my kicks fitting the bass more properly lately.

I've watched Future Music Magazine where Dada Life talks about tuning the kick into the right key, to fit the bass. They also state that the track sounds really odd if the kick isn't in key.

I've also watched a countless numbers of tutorials on youtube, read on forums and several posts about this.

All answers are different.

Most people just say "use your ears", sure.. but this is EXTREMELY hard. How do you guys do this?

I can't hear if the kick is in key or not, in relative with the bass. I read some posts where people stated that the kick couldn't get in key due to several pitches being blended in the key. This might be true, but there must be a fundamental key in the kick, doesn't it?

I also watched some tutorial where they inserted a voxengo span and watched the "peak" points of the kick, holding the mouse over that peak and it shows what key that peak is in. They also said in the video that this should most likely (not always) be the fundamental of the kick and therefore determines the key of the kick.

I've tried this technique. And I still cannot hear any difference by pitching the kick a semitone or so.
All I can hear is the changed characteristic in pitch, of the kick. I cannot really tell if it's in key or not.

So, what's the best method for this? I wish I could just listen to it and tell if it's in key or not. But I really cannot. It's too muddy and too, I don't know.. it's just like hearing some extremely diffused reverb, you cannot really hear what's going on down there. Muddy stuff.

I need to find a technique how to make it fit the bassline better.

Tips? and hearing/listening is excluded, I simply don't have the ears for it haha.

Thanks alot!

Bronto Scorpio · Post by **Bronto Scorpio** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:56 pm

You should NEVER exclude listening from making music.
I don't think any of your listeners will use a spectrum analyzer to WATCH your tracks, they'll use their ears to LISTEN to them.

I can just say how I tune my kickdrums (if I use samples):

1. Start to play the track with the kick and some other elements.
2. Turn the tune knob until it sounds good.
3. Done!

If you want them to be them exactly in tune you could use a tuner (GTune is nice and free) or something like that.

Cheers
Dennis

cron · Post by **cron** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:01 pm

Not all kicks contain a stable pitch. The pitch of most electronic kicks tends to fall over time. Sharply at first (the transient) then slowly over the rest of it (the 'body'). A notable exception is the 808 kick which commonly has a long stable tail, but that's generally pitched so low (down into the 'feel' rather than 'hear' range) as to not really be an issue. Then you've got the big distorted hardstyle type kicks where melodies tend to be played using the kick tail in place of the bass...

In general though, I don't personally feel this is as common an issue as Dada Life might have you believe. Pitching kicks is indeed useful to help keep them out of the frequency range occupied by the bass, but unless you're working with a kick that has a really strong, stable pitch that's immediately audible in there, I don't think this is something to worry yourself too much about.

In short, unless you're deliberately using the kick as a melodic element, don't worry too much about tuning.

edit: I should also say that, given how short kicks tend to be and the time/frequency inaccuracy tradeoffs inherent to spectrum analysers, I certainly peresonally wouldn't use one to inspect a kick. I'd also be more inclined to think that any peaks you see in such an analysis are formant frequencies/slight resonances as opposed to fundamental pitches, given how few kicks actually contain a stable fundamental pitch.

robogone · Post by **robogone** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:35 pm

jontah wrote:How do you guys do this?

I don't.

I'm not quite sure why there's a perceived *need* to do this. Sure, if the bass drum is the type that is obviously pitched then it might be worth tweaking it a little, but I wouldn't try to match the key of the piece of music - just move it a little so that it sounds more natural. It's not really hard to do, you just listen and if it sounds bad then move it, and if it sounds good leave it.

For the most part though I just wouldn't bother with doing this.

jontah wrote:They also state that the track sounds really odd if the kick isn't in key.

I think they're full of it. The vast majority of music ever recorded has had no one trying to pitch the bass drum to the key of the bass. This sounds more like one person's obsession with something just for the sake of doing it.

nineofkings · Post by **nineofkings** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:45 pm

As already stated, tuning the kick is unnecessary unless it's a long 808 kick used as a bass (like in trap) or a really distorted, pitched hardstyle kick. If you don't notice that it's in tune, then your listeners won't.

cron · Post by **cron** » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:04 pm

One more thing to bear in mind is that the 65 to 100 Hz range (where you'll usually find most of the energy in a kick) only covers a little over half an octave (between about C and G). Even if you are using your kick as a melodic element, there's really not a lot of wiggle room before your pitched kick goes so high that it stops sounding like a kick altogether.

VibraSound · Post by **VibraSound** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:49 am

I tune my kick.

40 Hz to 80 Hz range for me.

Atomisk · Post by **Atomisk** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:25 am

I pitch my kicks, I find it can ease some phasing issues with the sub bass synth from the bass synth stack.

*and I would like to add that I make my own kicka, which are generally long 808s that quickly pitch down to a steady frequency, and then pitch down again during the tail.

Loki Fuego · Post by **Loki Fuego** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 12:31 pm

I tune my kick by ear, until it starts bouncing with the bassline.

MrMagneto · Post by **MrMagneto** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:56 pm

If your kick is saturated or overdriven and has a lot over harmonic overtones, it might sound disharmonic with other instruments. If it's a classic clean kick with no real tonal information, you can leave it as it is.
Btw, I'd rather tune the kick so it sounds powerfull within the drum group and then tune the instrumental so it fits the kick. ...but this depends on the music style.

loopdon · Post by **loopdon** » Fri Apr 06, 2012 2:09 pm

hmm, difficult topic. while it is true that most kicks bend over a certain lenght of time - most will drop to a stable pitch, as well. i believe in physics.
getting the non-tonal part right is one thing. but below 100 hz i firmly believe in tuning. especially if the bass isn't offbeat but rides over parts of the kick.
why wouldn't i try and get these parts in tune???

kritikon · Post by **kritikon** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:39 pm

No, most kicks don't drop to a stable pitch. The only ones that do will be the long drawn out ones - and in terms of dancey stuff (and only in dancey stuff would anyone be so anal as to think a pitched kick is even desirable) most kicks really don't have a long envelope. If you were to patch up a kick in a synth, it is a full envelope over the pitch so that it will pitch down to infinity depending on what type of envelope you can use on it. And it's a very quick envelope so that no tone as such is audible.

Absolutely, the character of a kick changes as you pitch it up or down, but it's not playing any notes or fitting in with the pitch of the bass or any magical mojo nonsense - it's merely getting bassy or less bassy, and clickier or boomier. Tuning a kick is like the web obsession with sidechaining - you can do it, it might even be useful on the odd occasion, but you used to be a ble to make all kinds of fancy music without doing it and still can. It's not essential, and if you can't personally hear the difference, then there's no point in doing it. Hearing a difference is the only reason for doing anything in music, pretty well...

risome · Post by **risome** » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:46 pm

http://kimlajoie.wordpress.com/2010/06/ ... -the-song/

http://audio.tutsplus.com/tutorials/pro ... eton-live/

Syncretia · Post by **Syncretia** » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:42 am

The answer to original question is to not obsess over tiny details. It's a surefire way to end up in a loop of procrastination.

Who really gives a toss if the kick is out of tune?

maclean · Post by **maclean** » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:56 am

Never understood the whole tuning kick to bass...

In addition to 100% agreeing with cron, say you do decide to tune the kick to the bass (which i would argue is not even possible with 90% of the kicks out there). what happens when the chord changes and the bass goes up or down 4,5 or 6 semitones? Is the kick gonna be pitched to follow every chord change? In my experience a kick can be tuned +/- 2 semitones before it sounds weird therefore if your song plays anything other than one bass note your f**ked?

Tune kick to bass?