Tape sound question - Particularly for those who've used real tape

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...back in the day.

Hi Guys, I already had a topic slightly on this subject but have started a new one.

Basically, I've been making 80's funk using the Linn Drumm and DMX and failing to get it to sound like the records from back then, until I was told of a set of Tape impulses(Studer A80RC I believe, by Beamsonic) that I tried which after like 6 months of attempting to get 'the' sound It was like revelation, I'd pretty much been wasting my time and the sound is due to to tape..

Now my issue is these impulses aren't very usable, lots of noise and sounds like ti might be degrading the signal, so I've been attempting to recreate the sound using Tape VST's etc but nothing seems to be coming close unfortunately, I've uploades a clip of the DMX with stock sound versus through the impulse, so you can hear what I'm talking about.

What most of the tape sims seem to do is just dull it or flatten it(the exact opposite of what im trying to achieve) where as the impulse adds this amazing punch, takes off the attack(transient smearing I assume) and adds a nice thick low end even though on the analyzer, everything gets rolled off below 50hz due to the impulse..

Even when I throw the impulse on the masterbuss of a whole track everything fits sits, gels together sounds punchy/fat warm, yet the downside ofcourse is the dullness and all the noise... When I first heard it, I finally understood the hype around tape.

I'll get to my questions on that.

CLIP: http://picosong.com/3PiZ/

So my questions are, and particularly to those who have used tape back in the day and even more so in dance music:

1. Have you managed/has anyone gotten a similar sound to the impulse ITB?

2. Does it sound like there's more than just tape saturation going on with the impulse? I'm starting to wonder since none of the tape emu's can do this that maybe more is going on with the impulse.

2. For those who've used tape, I've heard EQ or exciters would often be used (before) the tape as it would dull the signal(Yet I've read on here good tape doesn't dull it, just smooths the highs)

3. Again for those who've used tape, this kind of ties in with the above but does it sound like there's possible EQ being driven into the tape

4. Is the impulse actually saturating it? I've done all the searching I can on these impulses etc and people say since it's not dynamic that it isn't saturating, just modelling the EQ? If so how does it appear to change it so drastically, no EQ I've tried has worked.

I think that's it.

I must say I'd been at this for MONTHS banging my head against a wall(Tried pretty much everything, saturation plugs, transient designers, gates, compressors, eq's in pretty much every chain possible lol) atleast I know it's tape now but how to recreate this sound? The closest VST's to it(I've tried VTM, V Tape, Roundtone, Ferox, Ferric, MPX, Reel bus, Voxengo Tapebus, Nebula 3) are Reel bus(Voxengo Tapebus is OK too) Reelbus is pretty decent but still doesn't add the punch that Impulse is doing.

Hoping someone might have a clue as to what I'm going on about as I just want to get all my songs finished. :D

Any good appreciated, thanks.

PS: Here are the impulses if anyone wants to play with, they were shared on his old site years ago I believe:(Beamsonic, so all credit to him):http://www.sendspace.com/file/4nm9bo

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The Studer Tapemachine Impulses sound really great, BUT as far as I understand it's actually nothing else than a static EQ. So using impulses will not give a complete emulation of the whole tape process, but it will give you a similiar freequency spectrum ("EQ curve"). Anybody is welcome to correct me, if I'm mistaken.

Because real tape saturates differently depending on the gain of the incoming signal, so in reality it's a non-linear process, and there a probably some other side-effects (positive and negative) involved.

I found this at another discussion about the exact topic:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/f-o- ... pulse.html

Forgot to say (edit)

Maybe to recreate the sound of 1980s Funk it takes more than just the tape sound alone. Try to recreate the whole signal chain as authentic as possible. Or maybe you can take a look at the Stonesthrow guy, who makes similiar music. Dam-Funk, maybe he has some Studio Behind the Scenes Footage online somewhere, cause he recreates the 1980s (Westcoast) Funk sound very authentically.

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Izak Synthiemental wrote:The Studer Tapemachine Impulses sound really great, BUT as far as I understand it's actually nothing else than a static EQ. So using impulses will not give a complete emulation of the whole tape process, but it will give you a similiar freequency spectrum ("EQ curve"). Anybody is welcome to correct me, if I'm mistaken.

Because real tape saturates differently depending on the gain of the incoming signal, so in reality it's a non-linear process, and there a probably some other side-effects (positive and negative) involved.

I found this at another discussion about the exact topic:
http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/f-o- ... pulse.html
Hi, yes it's links like those that I have came accross saying what I said in my OP.

So is it really just Static EQ, that's what I don't get and if it is how would I replicate it, can a normal EQ replicate this, surely there's something else going on, how is EQ smearing the transients? If you EQ the stock sound as if to take off high end(transients) it just makes it dull and lifeless(nothing like the impulse) so that's why I'm not convinced it's just EQ?

If you play with the impulse, you can hear how it seems to be 'live' everytime the attack of a sound comes through, it softens it up and makes it punchy and seems to glue everything together, even though I've heard of 'punchy' eq's I've never heard an EQ do this myself, mind I'm only ITB, maybe it happens in the analog world?

I mean listen how to this clip, first 8 bars sounds like ass then.... magic.. ok it sounds very dull but the low end beef and how it all glues?? magic, the negatives are the problem with the impulse ofcourse.

CLIP 2: http://picosong.com/3Kai

Just some food for thought.

Thanks.

EDIT: Yeah I know of him, he's good and authentic at the sound(musically) I wouldn't be trying to emulate him sonically though.

I already do the chains and don't have any other issues other than the drums and perhaps overall tone which is down to tape/saturation.
Last edited by Agility on Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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if you apply the impulse through regular convolution plugin, nothing is going on. an impulse is a static EQ. well, actually, it's a very short reverb. if it's a few samples long - it acts like a static EQ. if it's longer - it'll act like a reverb and may very well affect the transients and whatnot.

you can approximate the sound of an impulse response with an EQ, given enough bands, but i'd suggest taking Reelbus (since it got you the closest) and try adding some additional processing e.g. different saturation, compression, excitation etc. you have your starting point.
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.

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Slate Digital's VTM is the closest I've heard, without a doubt.

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It's said - but I can clearify a little.

Simple impulses do linear transitions/translations well.

And tape doing both compression/saturation is non-linear process.

But if to come close you might look into Nebula which as I understand use multiple impules, and do some kind of morphing technique to shift between them dynamically.

It's really cpu heavy as I understand - but they might have a good solution if you don't find it elsewhere.

Waves Kramer Master Tape(KMT) is doing really lovely things.
:)

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There are also some nice plugins by CDSoundMaster, including fully functional demos of their tape line (all based on Nebula). The free version of their tape plugin is rather low-fi sounding, because it's a 7.5 program (takes away a lot of the highs). But maybe it's close to the sound you want:

http://cdsoundmaster.com/site/cds-softw ... demos.html

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I've tried the CD Soundmaster stuff and MPX(Roundtone, Ferox, Reelbus are far better IMO), neither do it at all.. Which pretty much leads back to my original post, and my question wondering what aspect of the tape is it that I'm trying to emulate, I mean if you just listened to the clip for the first time you'd probably think compression, it sounds as if it's compressing but even I now understand it's not as ofcourse, no matter how much you change the level/input of the sound 'into' the impulse, it doesn't 'change', that makes sense, I understand now.

So it's as if it's an EQ that's acting somehow dynamically(yet statically) relative to each input sound?

The comment about the impulse being like a reverb is interesting as it does sound a bit like a reverb, it does seem to push the sound back.

The most interesting thing I think is what it seems to do to the apparent level, say you've got a kick and snare playing kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 4 and they sound disjointed/not flowing well if you put the impulse on, it really 'glues' them together, that's really fascinating.

Reelbus can kind of get close but it seems to miss out on the punch/depth, I'm playing with Sknote again as it was pretty good before, maybe I've missed something, maybe there's a specific chain.

Burillo: That's pretty much the plan and what I've been doing with the different chains(though I'm not convinced just EQ can achieve it since I've tried many times) with not much good result. That's why I'm hoping someone who's used tape or was around back then can chime in with some tips. I've done alot of searching but not found much info hence posting about this.

All I can say is if that impulse is the real(or part of the) sound of tape then I want to achieve it, I now(recently) understand why tape is so praised!(Unfortunately can't have the real thing. :love: )

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Just kinda musing here, but --

Tape does a few things with your sound. First, it filters off a lot of the highs and much of the lows, and tends to have a bit of a bump towards the bottom end. Tape also compresses and distorts the sound, especially if you record "slammin' in the red" (listen to anything from Foreigner or KISS); it's usually gently increasing amounts of low-order harmonic distortion. Most of us find all of these to be rather pleasant and subjectively "warm." However, tape also adds a lot of noise and can be a pain.

I think that's a pretty accurate summation of tape. If we can get the filtering/EQ, compression, and distortion without the noise, a lot of us would be very happy. You'd think it'd be easy, since it's just three effects, but I haven't been very successful yet. There's definitely something subtle and dynamic going on, so I'm sure that normal static impulses or EQ and such won't work. (Fsck tanh()!) Sometimes I'll use Electri-Q or ParisEQ for some gunginess. Ferox is nice, but too crisp. Bootsy's writings on "stateful saturation" don't give enough details, but his approach seems to be the Right Thing -- FerricTDS and ThrillseekerLA sound awfully good. [Edit:]Rombo is another nice effect that might be worth a try.

Still, I dunno... it's been a very long time since I used tape for anything, so maybe my memories aren't, err, Memorex. :hihi:
Wait... loot _then_ burn? D'oh!

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Agility wrote:(though I'm not convinced just EQ can achieve it since I've tried many times)
whether or not you're convinved is irrelevant - that's just how convolution works :-) a short (few samples long) impulse response is just a static EQ with a lot of bands.
I don't know what to write here that won't be censored, as I can only speak in profanity.

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I've had a 4 track Teac for many yrs...and that's just semi-pro quality and it used to kick ass. Machines age and the sound quality changes over time. There are so many variables that influence the sound like pre and post EQ high/mid/low , erase head bias voltage, various gain stage mini-potentiometers and so on. All these circuits use capacitors which wear out over time along with tape head surfaces which together roll off and change the record/playback response so that you need to have the machine compared to a calibration test tape to see if it needs to be re-calibrated every so often.

Tape also has a response curve depending on it's bias type. Different pro tape has different recording purposes and each will sound different on different machines. Usually a machine is calibrated using a tape type recommended by the machine manufacturer considering the heads and how it was set-up.

Well maintained pro studio machines aren't going to sound dull or in anyway less transparent then digital. If you drive a track into saturation you have a chance your going to bleed into the adjacent track, (crosstalk) and that's not good.
Some peaks are clipped/saturated at one analog stage or another creating harmonic distortion but it's not as intentional as you might think. That's why we have compressors. Most signals in studios were and are mostly from mics which are in themselves very dynamic...unlike your VSTi. If you want punch...use hi quality samples or real hardware equipment mic'd.

Your just not going to get the punch and body of a good machine from an emulation vst. If you want saturation, I like and have heard great results using GClip. If the emu claims to emulate odd or even harmonics, that's another effect worth looking into as a tape machine emu effect. The real heart of a good tape machine can't be recreated. It's freaking complicated hardware. Find another hobby. :)
....................Don`t blame me for 'The Roots', I just live here. :x
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Thanks for the info annode, got some Q's for you or any other's in the know with experience.
annode wrote:I've had a 4 track Teac for many yrs...and that's just semi-pro quality and it used to kick ass. Machines age and the sound quality changes over time. There are so many variables that influence the sound like pre and post EQ high/mid/low, erase head bias voltage, various gain stage mini-potentiometers and so on. All these circuits use capacitors which wear out over time along with tape head surfaces which together roll off and change the record/playback response so that you need to have the machine compared to a calibration test tape to see if it needs to be re-calibrated every so often.
Yes, this is one of my questions to those with experience of the analog world and tapes, ideally as far as (4x4)dance music goes, what sort of processes and chains were used.. eq I've heard exciters/EQ's were used BEFORE tape due to it being dull but this is second hand info(And like you've just said, not all tape is dull) and I'm guessing not everyone did this or in that order etc I'm already experimenting with chains but I'd like to know what was actually being done so I can aim my focus in the right direction.
Well maintained pro studio machines aren't going to sound dull or in anyway less transparent then digital. If you drive a track into saturation you have a chance your going to bleed into the adjacent track, (crosstalk) and that's not good.
So does the impulse sound 'dull' to you or like normal tape?

Some peaks are clipped/saturated at one analog stage or another creating harmonic distortion but it's not as intentional as you might think. That's why we have compressors. Most signals in studios were and are mostly from mics which are in themselves very dynamic...unlike your VSTi. If you want punch...use hi quality samples or real hardware equipment mic'd.
Well my interests here are related to dance music(and particularly the drums where the effect is so noted) so not really acoustic or recorded, I don't think they were mic'ing drums from a DMX or Linn surely, not atleast in my references.
Your just not going to get the punch and body of a good machine from an emulation vst. If you want saturation, I like and have heard great results using GClip. If the emu claims to emulate odd or even harmonics, that's another effect worth looking into as a tape machine emu effect. The real heart of a good tape machine can't be recreated. It's freaking complicated hardware. Find another hobby. :)
Heh, I've had GClip for years and used it for distortion on leads, never thought about using it for saturation, I shall play with it.

I'm not sure exactly what it is I want(other than to somewhat emulate the results of the impulse)which apparently the impulse isn't modelling saturation and just modelling EQ. :roll:
Which maybe is so but it isn't acting like a regular EQ, it's acting individually related to each input, right?

That's what I'm trying to understand, is this impulse modelling just the character of that particular tape machine and tape Emu's aren't actually bad at all, their just not imparting the same character as the impulse or is it a case that Tape emu's aren't 'there' yet, even though the impulse isn't actually modelling live saturation; it sounds better than them or atleast for me it does.



I'm sensing some negative 'vibes' from some posters here(I don't know why) which is why I was reluctant to post this thread. Just trying to make better sounding music with what I have and who ever reads this can learn from it if anyone has good info to share. :)

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[jibberish removal]

EDIT: Ok Agility - I finally listened to your clip, nice groove. Sorry about all the high end chatter - I got the flu going here. I get it now, bottom end!

I also did seem to notice some softening in the highs also when your impulse was applied.

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I seem to remember when I was using SIR and Voxengo CurveEQ (older version with preamp 'impulse-type' curves) that something was happening with phase (because of the impuse tail setting?). I was going to drag out SIR later (Is that the one you're using?) and put it in CBudde's VST Analyser for fun.

It is kind of interesting what is happening with your sound when you 'Impulse' it with the Beamsonic.

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kylen wrote:I seem to remember when I was using SIR and Voxengo CurveEQ (older version with preamp 'impulse-type' curves) that something was happening with phase (because of the impuse tail setting?). I was going to drag out SIR later (Is that the one you're using?) and put it in CBudde's VST Analyser for fun.

It is kind of interesting what is happening with your sound when you 'Impulse' it with the Beamsonic.
Kylen you shouldn't have removed the 'gibberish' lol, I read it last night and was going to reply to it today but yeah my focus is more on the low end tightening/thump providing but I guess the whole frequency spectrum is relevant.

I've tried it in SIR and the Voxengo one, same result although you have to remember SIR has a wet and dry so if you don't turn down the dry you get it playing too, maybe that was the source of your issue?

I've been playing with Round tone again, some of the presets do have that sort of tight snappening while dulling the signal and then maybe the rest is due to EQ, I don't know but if I was to attempt to get the same sound as on the records I guess I'd have to be doing a considerable amount of EQ prob before and after which I'm playing with, I'd love to know from someone if this is really what was done though.

Cheers.

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