KVR Audio

Funxion · Post by **Funxion** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 3:24 am

Hello, I always hate smashing my tracks to the "commercial level" but most tracks (dubstep, electro house tracks) are hitting around -2 RMS. Some are even clipping on my meters. Even If I push my tracks to -3RMS, they still don't sound as loud, but are close to many of the popular tracks. I use a lot of different plugs and I know its mainly all about your mix, but how do they get it so loud without sounding too bad? I've read you never really want to push the level above -6RMS but most tracks I throw a meter on are hitting -2RMS and even clipping. Ideas, thoughts?

lfm · Post by **lfm** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:33 am

Not into EDM as such - but first thing that come to mind are which limiters you have tried?
They are very different regarding look ahead, and autorelease, multiband or not etc

Ears are most sensitive in mid range 1k-3k or so, and will be perceived as louder if emphasizing this range - but how it will sound good or not is another matter.

But if bass is emphasized too much, it will make limiting kick in earlier and mid range may be weaker. So HP the track and find the spot where powerful but not loose too much low end.

And if going for that extra dB look at multiband limiters that can have their own setting for each band.

Funxion · Post by **Funxion** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:47 am

Thanks some helpful tips. Ive experienced with Waves L1-L3, Ozone, Brainworx, Slate Digitals fxG, Fabfilter etc. I usually highpass around 30-40hz and use brainworx mono maker for the lower frequencies. As far as multiband limiters I have used the Flux alchemist, or the fabfilter MB. I think I'm having a hard time with the track I am working on because it has a lot of low end so it's hard to make the track loud without losing the bass or distorting. I just get shocked when I compare it to a popular reference track, it's all ways is a little quieter even though its hitting around -3 RMS.

manducator · Post by **manducator** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:48 am

1. Parallel compress your whole track
2. Add saturation (U-he Satin, for instance)
3. Use a clipper before the limiter
4. Add 1 or 2% of dadalife's sausage fattener after the limiter

Funxion · Post by **Funxion** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 7:14 am

Thanks ill try that. I usally do all that but I use PSP saturator, but allways had sausage fattener at 1% before the limiter but Ill see how it sounds after. Thanks!

Hermetech Mastering · Post by **Hermetech Mastering** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:18 pm

Send it to a pro mastering engineer who does this every day, and will have lots of little tricks which can add up to a lot of extra clean gain if needed. Off the top of my head there could be multiple stages of: HPF, LPF, analogue chain saturation, clipping the ADC, clipping internally with a clipping plugin, EQ (based on the equal loudness curves), compression, and finally, limiting. If you try to get all the loudness with any one of these processes, it's 99% going to sound like pure arse.

And btw, RMS is a very crappy way to measure perceived loudness, as there is no set standard for measuring it, and it doesn't take the frequency domain or transient/micro/macro dynamics into account. It's just a mathematical averaging and you can EASILY have a louder sounding track with a higher RMS figure.

Tricky-Loops · Post by **Tricky-Loops** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:34 pm

Funxion wrote:Hello, I always hate smashing my tracks to the "commercial level" but most tracks (dubstep, electro house tracks) are hitting around -2 RMS. Some are even clipping on my meters.

If you HATE it, why do you want to do it (as bad as many commercial tracks)?

DuX · Post by **DuX** » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:37 pm

I simply run the track through a Marshall DSL100 and limit it with Limiter6 to get rid of any stray peaks and micro decibels of dynamics. The result is absolutely flat with no dynamics at all and as loud as it can be.

And never forget to put a dithering plugin after the limiter for that pro top quality sound.

Cheers!

AnotherSubstance · Post by **AnotherSubstance** » Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:46 am

Thumbs up on all the saturation suggestions.

Gain Staging can be REALLY effective to get a lot of volume. I'd go so far as to say rather then a single compressor on a track pushing 6 db, do two with 3 db each.

Just keep compressing every stage to build up incredible volume but only compress to the compressors sweet spot each stage... it will vary as you go through each time.

Even pop a compressor before and after your mastering effects finishing with your limiter...

By the time you get to your limiter you're probably only doing 1 or 2 MAYBE 3 db final compression.

This way, no single track over compresses all your other tracks in the end.

ex

Raw Track
comp
fx
comp
to bus
comp
fx
comp
to master
comp
fx
comp limiter

Remember, most of these comps will be at most probably 3db but usually 1 or 2.

DJ Warmonger · Post by **DJ Warmonger** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:27 pm

And btw, RMS is a very crappy way to measure perceived loudness, as there is no set standard for measuring it, and it doesn't take the frequency domain or transient/micro/macro dynamics into account. It's just a mathematical averaging and you can EASILY have a louder sounding track with a higher RMS figure.

There's DR Meter which also takes A-weighting curve into consideration and I find it pretty reliable. Certainly helps if you dont trust your ears anymore and tend to overcompress things.

My current mastering chain is:
- Very subtle parallel compressor (as everything is already parralelly compresssed in mixing chain)
- GClip to chop the wildest peaks off
- Mid-side compressor to remove unnecessary (and only these) stereo width from lower frequencies
- The best sounding limiter I could get, with some ceiling remaining
- Multiband (tape) saturator to add some warmth to the mix
- Mastering limiter which simply shifts things up to 0.0 dB

That assumes minimum 12 dB input DR for uplifting trance

and sterile, alias-free render before mastering. Also, I use wide polyphonic oscillators and effects without any limits and only cut them with MS compressor when the time comes.

K@rol · Post by **K@rol** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:54 pm

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much- ... tored.html
Read this

K@rol · Post by **K@rol** » Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:06 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fChGiRz ... 4J-U4Z0SPQ
Watch this

Compyfox · Post by **Compyfox** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:08 am

Funxion wrote:...but most tracks (dubstep, electro house tracks) are hitting around -2 RMS. Some are even clipping on my meters. Even If I push my tracks to -3RMS, ...

Just to clarify one thing:
The loudest tracks I've heard so far in terms of RMS values (300ms and 600ms), were -5dB RMS (actually, -4,8dB - example: Metallica's Death Magnetic album, Paul McCartney's "Memories Almost Full" and Johnny Cash's "American VI: Ain't No Grave" go towards that direction)

-2dB RMS would equal a total distorted garbage and is not technically possible. Especially not with current-day MP3 CODECs.

EDM (hypernym) wise, one among the loudest are Skrillex and Noisia. Just run their recent productions (for example on Youtube, i.e. Noisia with "Could it Be") through an appropriate loudness meter, and you see what I mean.

General word of advice:
DO NOT DO IT. Especially not for the benefit of "being heard more often" - not worth it.

3ee · Post by **3ee** » Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:14 am

Yes, as Compyfox pointed out, the RMS values are strongly dependent on time values.

I'm also against the loudness wars, I wish they simply stop it as it's simply ridiculous!
[either way; by law (not counting on that) or indie strategies i.e. selling your music directly on your website or something]

K@rol, thanks for the links, had a good time remembering when I started mixing at lower levels.

now curious about the Robert Babicz video. I remember watching a short video about mastering and him a while back that was cool ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_48y9dQxN3c )

DJ Warmonger · Post by **DJ Warmonger** » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:32 pm

The loudest tracks I've heard so far in terms of RMS values (300ms and 600ms), were -5dB RMS (actually, -4,8dB - example: Metallica's Death Magnetic album, Paul McCartney's "Memories Almost Full" and Johnny Cash's "American VI: Ain't No Grave" go towards that direction)

Depends on genre. While for rock optimal RMS (Or DR, which are strictly related) may be 10-9 dB,in trance 5 dB is pretty average and common to all labels. On the other hand, that's the reason, I believe, why this genre is underground - average people used to acoustic arrangements can't stand this loudness level.
I once compressed chillout track and it felt weird regarldless of overall sound quality and transparence.

The best way is just to pull out DR meter and check some of your favourite tracks you wish to compete with. Better ask yourself a question if that's REALLY a sound which you are after.
However, I still recommend aming at audience which is not deaf yet. This market is pretty limited, but may be growing

Loudness wars