How to create complex pitch bend/slide parts

[A Little Man and a House]

Hi all, I would appreciate your help please. I want to create tunes with lots of pitch bend and slides of varying range and length, but I haven't yet found a workflow that isn't tedious and inefficient. Everything below strictly concerns VST and MIDI control of pitch. I am interested in different methods, and how you personally go about creating complex pitch bend parts in your DAW of choice (I am a Reaper user).

Here are the approaches that I am aware of, and why they don't work for me. Please excuse the long post.

1. Pitch bend (PB) wheel on MIDI controller
While I have one of these, I am not a skilled keyboardist. I am a mouse and keyboard man, and spend most of my time looking at the piano roll. Skill aside though, real time PB wheel use isn't an option if you have lots of 16th and 8th notes rapidly alternating between perfect fifths, major thirds, octaves, etc.

2. manually editing PB CC lane
The problem here is that it is difficult to bend to a range of intervals. If your VST has a PB range of 12 semitones, then your notes will bending to a CC value of ~ +11 (128/12=10.6...) for 1 semitone, ~ +21 for 2 semitones ((127/12)*2=21.3...), ~ +32 for 3 semitones, and so on, which I find nearly impossible to do with just a pen tool in a CC lane. it's all inexact. If Reaper had a user defined vertical snap for CC lanes, that might ease the process (do any DAWs have such a feature?).

3. Manually editing PB CC and PB range CC.
Same as above, but adjusting the PB range also. This method requires that the VST has adjustable PB range, which can be automated. I have had success with this method with Synth1. Basically, if I want to bend up +5, I will hit a button on my MIDI controller which is set up (with MIDI-OX) to send the appropriate CC value to the PB range (in synth1 this can be anywhere from 1-24, so (128/24)*5=26.6... or 27). I will then draw a PB curve in the CC lane which just goes right to the top. All PB range values are assigned a button in this way. Problem: many VSTs, including several favourites, lack a PB range which can be automated, or even adjusted. Back to the drawing board..

4. Legato and portamento
This is great for some purposes. The main problem with using portamento and legato is that notes bend at an absolute duration. If I want to write a part that includes a slooow 3 semitone slide up, then a quick 3 semitone slide down, this won't cut it.

5. Legato and portamento + automating portamento time
Same as above, but portamento time is assigned to a CC and adjusted in CC lane or by midi controller. As before with PB range, I have used MIDI-ox to assign my MIDI controller buttons to several portamento time values (100ms, 250ms, 500ms, 1s). The problem with this is that portamento time seems to generally be limited to an absolute time value, (in milliseconds, or just not specifed), and not a tempo relative note duration (1/4, 1/8, 1/16). Please post if you know of VSTs with tempo relative portemento time. With absolute portamento time, given a knowledge of the duration the maximum portamento time represents, and the BPM of your song, it is possible to assign a controller to values equivalent to 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc. But that would need to be done repeatedly, on a per song basis, which again, is tedious. And that's assuming you're not planning on tempo automation, which would be a major headache. I thought that maybe I was overthinking this, and that a 'close enough' approach to portamento time might be fine. But I soon discovered that the end of the slide, where the note 'lands', is equally if not more important than the start of the slide, and inaccuracy here sounds like bad quantisation.

6. Sampled slides, keyswitched
These are great for some purposes, including achieving an organic sound. But it increases the complexity enormously. A unique sample is required for every interval up to at least twelve semitones, and for every duration from 1/16 to a bar, to really get this off the ground. Triggering them is not very intuitive, either.

7. FL Studio 'slide events'
An honourable mention must go to FL Studio's slide events. These would be perfect if they were compatible with anything other than Image-Line's DAW and instruments. If you're not familiar with them, slide events can be toggled in the FL Studio piano roll. They look like normal notes, but trigger a linear slide. The length is defined by the length of the note. Polyphony is supported by laying down notes of different colours, eg. a red slide event will slide red notes, a blue will slide blue notes. In this way you can make a major chord slide into a minor chord, and so on. I got started with FL and still admire it, but I've found too much I like about Reaper to go back.

So, there it is. Have you set up an efficient workflow for pitch bending, and overcome the above difficulties? I want to know about it!

[ntom]

tl:dr
If you want to slide between notes easily put the Portemento control on the mod wheel so you can turn portmento off and on, that way you can turn it on pre slide, and turn it off post slide.

Hope that helped.
If not, when I am done eating I'll actually read this novel of text and try to help out better.

EDIT
Okay, I skimmed through and gathered my above mention idea was kind of already done by you.
So my only real recommendation is first off:
Have pride in your work and know that when there is something long and tedious ahead, the end result will be worth while, but you have to suffer through the tedium first. That in mind, I think the best option is to go through by hand and draw the proper pitch bends in for long sustains, and use my above mentioned trick for short pitch bends.
Between the two you'll cover most of your ground.

[A Little Man and a House]

ntom:
Yeah, using portamento for the short slides and PB for the long bends is a good approach.
What you say about patience in the face of tedium is true. I hope I didn't create the impression I was lazy or wanting a quick fix. It's more of a question of workflow. If one guy has an efficient workflow, and the other guy doesn't, they might create music of equal quality. But at the end of the year, one guy has finished 50 songs, and the other guy has finished 3.

Here is something I knocked together yesterday with FL's slide events, described above. It's contains lots of slides and bends of different durations and intervals. It took me 40-50 minutes keyboard and mouse work. It would have taken me much longer the other ways... I guess I just wish there was a non-proprietary equivalent to FL's slide events : (

https://soundcloud.com/u7321551/fl-stud ... es-example

More techniques and opinions are welcome.

[Touch The Universe]

Care to share the .flp file to take a look at? Just from listening I would suggest maybe slowing down the tempo by 200-400 percent to have it playing slow for fine tune pitch shifting then speeding up the tempo to normal to see if it has an interesting effect taking into account the change in overall pitch from tempo change. Or you could divide the melody into many instances or per note so that when you want to change pitch it won't affect what's later on in the sequence. Or learn to play with keyboard pitch, I'm sure spending 20 hours practicing pitch bending would serve you good for years to come if not forever

[A Little Man and a House]

Yeah, I'd be happy to. I don't have access to it right now, will upload when I can : )

[Sendy]

Interesting topic, this, and some good ideas discussed there. I'd never thought of automating the actual pitchbend range - I tend to set it at the highest interval I need and draw or perform lesser bends by ear, though that can be tricky, it gives interesting slightly off results sometimes.

Another idea might be to either automate or map to the modwheel the portamento rate, if allowed.

Trackers are really good in this regard, giving you arbitrary control over pitch and other parameter sweeps at every moment, in a way which is very exact and can be as surgical as you want - which is one area CC's and other MIDI date can be lacking - especially if you want to mix up smooth slides with "square" instant pitch jumps.

[Touch The Universe]

Though tedious, you could also automate the portamento rate as well to increase or decrease the speed as needed, you could even maybe automate between types of portamento or legato playing styles I would assume in some synths. Try out Imposcar, it has the most and best glide/portamento settings I've ever heard by far, like 8 types, things not present on any other synth I've heard, kinda hard to describe but best to check it out for yourself. I would definetely like to see more synths dedicated to glide styles and more Daws with many more options in this area but I happen to know that Fl studio is one of the better ones in piano roll. A snap to grid fine tune pitch shift would be lovely, if anyone knows of a daw that does this let me know or maybe a pitch shifter that stays in a designated key no matter what be ideal as well though can't imagine what that sound like. Formant Shifting is also very pleasent to play around with and is very smooth gliding between octaves, try quickquack pitchwheel and melodyne for best formants IMO.

[Tricky-Loops]

I don't think there's a (fast) way to apply varying (!) pitch-bending without drawing anything. If you draw some LFO waves (in a MIDI plugin) to modulate the pitch bend (or glide/slide control) or if you draw the automation lane itself or if you draw slides in FL Studio, there's always something to draw...

But are extreme pitchbend leads still in fashion? I heard loads of tracks with pitch-bending & pitch envelopes a few years ago, everybody made them, but at the moment I have the impression that plucks are more becoming popular (again)...

[Touch The Universe]

Sorry seems Sendy beat me to the portamento automation but the original poster covered that area in OP. lol. sorry didn't read entire thread till just now. There are quite a few synths out there that have portamento according to tempo based host sync. Refx synths have this ie vanguard and nexus I know for sure. About the key where slides roll off of or on to I'm sure you are aware of Fl glide keys, if you switch quantisation off I'm sure you can create very quick pitch bend slides that stay in key and can exit any key you wish right, in fact I think I just found the solution to glides staying in key pondering this over instead it comes out of automation cc pitch with drawing and brings me back to the piano roll with keys?? In any case I will double check a few of my synths to see how the portamento rate is handled and if it is in fact snapped to grid via the time in ms settings you described which I can't imagine they would be or maybe for a good reason? Here the milliseconds to tempo based settings ie 1/4 etc would be contingent to tempo. so 140 bpm portamento snapped to 350ms would per say be 1/4 but slowed to 70 bpm the same lock setting would equate to 1/8. I just chose an arbitrary rate and time here but you get the point, so indeed and automation in tempo could potentially cause problems if also automating portamento time, I'd just make sure all pitch values are maybe set to zero after each automation.

[liv]

Here is something I knocked together yesterday with FL's slide events, described above. It's contains lots of slides and bends of different durations and intervals. It took me 40-50 minutes keyboard and mouse work. It would have taken me much longer the other ways... I guess I just wish there was a non-proprietary equivalent to FL's slide events : (

https://soundcloud.com/u7321551/fl-stud ... es-example

More techniques and opinions are welcome.

Nice job. It'd be cool to hear a complete tune (after you put your "effort" into it). Can only imagine it'd be nothing but superb.

Know nothing about FL but, my 2 cents would be to stick with the FL slide events feature.

[A Little Man and a House]

Just from listening I would suggest maybe slowing down the tempo by 200-400 percent to have it playing slow for fine tune pitch shifting then speeding up the tempo to normal to see if it has an interesting effect taking into account the change in overall pitch from tempo change.

I tried slowing it down and quite liked it : ) gave it a nice gritty twang. Here is the .flp: http://www.filedropper.com/flstudioslid ... e-guitar_1 It's all quick and dirty, really.

Or learn to play with keyboard pitch, I'm sure spending 20 hours practicing pitch bending would serve you good for years to come if not forever

You might be right.... do most people set the range to 12 semitones and bend to their desired pitch by ear, as Sendy describes? I find this ability quite amazing.

Sendy & Mysticvibes re:portamento rate:
Yeah, I covered that in my initial wall of text : P the main problem I encountered was my VSTs having portamento time as an absolute time (in ms) rather than tempo relative.

Try out Imposcar, it has the most and best glide/portamento settings I've ever heard by far, like 8 types, things not present on any other synth I've heard, kinda hard to describe but best to check it out for yourself.

I'll check it out, thanks for the tip.

There are quite a few synths out there that have portamento according to tempo based host sync. Refx synths have this ie vanguard and nexus I know for sure.

I will check these out too, thanks. Do you know of any samplers that have tempo-based portamento time also? I don't think Kontakt does, although I could be wrong...

About the key where slides roll off of or on to I'm sure you are aware of Fl glide keys, if you switch quantisation off I'm sure you can create very quick pitch bend slides that stay in key and can exit any key you wish

Ooh, not sure... Is this the same thing as slide events?

A snap to grid fine tune pitch shift would be lovely

AGREED!

Trackers are really good in this regard, giving you arbitrary control over pitch and other parameter sweeps at every moment, in a way which is very exact and can be as surgical as you want - which is one area CC's and other MIDI date can be lacking - especially if you want to mix up smooth slides with "square" instant pitch jumps.

Interesting, I hadn't considered this angle. Reaper has a tracker view which I haven't experimented with yet, I will give it a shot. Do you have a favourite tracker for this?

But are extreme pitchbend leads still in fashion? I heard loads of tracks with pitch-bending & pitch envelopes a few years ago, everybody made them, but at the moment I have the impression that plucks are more becoming popular (again)...

I've no idea... I never was very fashionable : P

Nice job. It'd be cool to hear a complete tune (after you put your "effort" into it). Can only imagine it'd be nothing but superb.

Oh, there was effort in that one : ) thanks for the kind words.

Know nothing about FL but, my 2 cents would be to stick with the FL slide events feature.

Yeah, it's tempting. But I was so fond of Reaper that I just bought a license. I am torn between two loves, haha.

[Sendy]

I grew up on trackers, but rarely use them these days. Personally I'd recommend Renoise, I have it and it's very powerful, I'm just so used to mixing and arranging in Cubase that I only really use trackers to do 100% authentic chiptune stuff - where expressive pitchbending is civilization basically

Corona has interesting glide modes - several of which I've never seen before. Interesting synth, too, with punchy filters and mad digital oscillators.

Diva and U-he synths in general allow you to set two glide rates, and they are shared amongst the synth oscillators. You could have oscillator 1 and 2 sliding at different speeds which can create allsorts of effects, and on top of that, if you add ringmodulation, sync, FM, etc, you can get some really eerie, creepy, quite unusual pitch bends.

Is pitch bending "fashionable"? Who cares! I use it a lot to give leads a "vocal" feel, for example, a quartertone bend down and up on a key note can really make it come alive. The more music comes off of the "tuning grid", the better, if you ask me.

Yes, keyboardists do practice live pitchbending with the synth bend setting set to a wide interval - though thankfully we can correct errors in the studio because I've not really mastered it yet

[Gonga]

I love your piece!

Look, I'm a player. By the time I sat down, had my keys set up and sounds set up, practiced a bit with the tune, recorded a few phrases and pieced them together, I'd probably take longer than your 50 minutes! However, I'd produce something slightly more human and subtle, and have one HELL of a lot more fun doing it.

I am going to discuss live bending with a controller - in my case a joystick. If you're not going to bother learning to bend pitch with a controller then ignore this post, but that would blow my mind since bending pitch is the most fun you can have with a synth, period! I started with a rotary pot - it blows people's minds what myself and others such as George Duke (original Arp Odyssey) used to do with a rotary knob (it allows very precise, subtle control) and have always preferred either that or a joystick to a wheel...

Sometimes I suggest to people to break away from the 2-semitones (whole-step) default. I usually prefer an upward bend setting of 3 semitones (minor third). This opens up an amazingly huge range of expression with just the one additional semitone up. It also lends itself really well to minor leads, especially using lots of diminished chords and melodies, and the blues. I also sometimes set it to 5 (fourth) 6 (tritone) or 7 (fifth) semitones. It depends on the instrument / arrangement and piece.

Another thing that's important to me is having independent upward and downward bend settings. If I want to do a small downward bend, such as in a bass line, I'll leave it set to 2 or 3 semitones sometimes (or more). But for lead lines I almost always set this to one or two octaves downward. This, in effect, gives you a tremolo bar or "whammy bar." It adds a huge amount of expressive capability, and sounds devastating when used for lead lines where you hit a 2-note fifth chord and drop it down two octaves. Note how rarely Jeff Beck strays from his Stratocaster these days...

But to summarize, it's a good idea to decide on a favorite set-up for lead work and make it your default for practicing. The minor third is a great place to start because it allows precision but also intentional flatness and sharpness - the human element. It is difficult to learn to bend pitch well if you are always using different settings, but the 2-semitones default is just too limiting and typical.

Also, most vibrato should be done with the pitch bend, not an LFO. LFO is OK for certain things, but sounds like a machine, not a person, so you automatically remove expression...

There's a lot more to pitch bending than this - I've only scratched the surface. Having independent bending on separate voices in a polyphonic patch opens up the ability to bend only the first or last note pressed - Jan Hammer is the only master of this technique who I have ever heard. He also used to use an Oberheim 6-voice with the modules triggered independently so that each module sounded like a different "string." That sound was so killer live I can't even begin to express it's beauty. If you want to study the master's playing I suggest listening to the single "Star Cycle" off Jeff Beck's There and Back (just...wow), the mind-blowing 1978 album Black Sheep (mono and duophonic mastery - "Hey Girl" is in a top-five category), and 1979's Hammer (the Oberheim polyphonic is introduced - "Rainbow Day" blew the lid off synth playing for me). And if you really like great synth playing, check out in chronological order, The First Seven Days, Oh Yeah, Melodies, Hip Address, Untold Passion (The Ride and a few others on this are legend), Escape From Television, Beyond the Mind's Eye, Snapshots 1.2, Miami Vice Complete Collection and Drive, but definitely start with the early stuff. This is the best education you can have for synth-playing, including bending pitch. On Black Sheep you'll hear Hendrix-style "open string" bends with one note held while the other bends up to it. He uses this method with a Yamaha DX-7 on Junkie XL's recent tune "Made For Each Other." This open string method is also used a lot by Jean-Luc Ponty.

http://janhammer.com/

[A Little Man and a House]

After weighing up the useful ideas I received, I've decided that for simple parts, I will use portamento + automated glide-rate, making use of some of the VSTs suggested. For complex parts, I will use a rewired FL Studio in Reaper.

@Gonga
Very interesting. Can you tell me a bit more about your joystick setup? I hadn't even considered this as an option. Is it a game joystick rigged to send midi CC, or a bona fide controller? I guess you can control pitch on one axis, say the Y, and use the X for something else?

I was familiar with George Duke (through Zappa's early 70s stuff), but I hadn't come across Jan Hammer's work, so thanks for that. I hadn't really thought about it, but one of my cherished albums, Return to Forever's Romantic Warrior, has pitchbendy synths up to the eyeballs. It's a bit cheesy, but I care not : )

@Sendy
Two oscillators with different glide rates is also a very interesting idea!

[Gonga]

I have two synths with joystick controllers. One is a Novation X-Station, and the other is a Korg Triton Extreme. Both make fantastic controllers. I really think the joystick is the easiest to learn to use, and from a physics standpoint, should permit tighter, easier control over delicate changes than most other benders such as wheels. I admit bias toward live pitch bending, but I have to say your piece sounds pretty good!

You can of course use the Y-axis for anything you like, but frankly, I use an expression pedal, in concert with the pitch bender and velocity control of the keyboard, for most all the expression I need. Just lately I've started using key switches with samples also.

I guess you could say pitch-bending is my thing. I have a lot of examples of my own at my Soundcloud site. I hope if you try a bit more of it that you really enjoy it as I have.

Here's a link to one of my most popular (very unusual) pieces with lots of bending going on:

http://soundcloud.com/dan-ling/acid-eats-metal