Anyone have this mix issue with headphones and monitors

[dblock]

I've been using my Sennheiser 650 headphones and GENELEC 8020a's with the 7050B subs for years but I noticed on the kicks that when the volume of the kick is just right to my ears in my headphones, they are too loud coming out of the speakers yet when I lower the volume on the kicks coming from the monitors, I can barely hear them in the 650 headphones. This is with or without using the sub.
It's almost Like I have to make a choice. Do I want them sounding balanced coming from the monitors or headphones when I want the two to verify a good mix coming out of both headphones AND speakers.
Any suggestions?
tia

[giantsteps]

Find a spot on the meters that you want the kick to peak at (say, 12dB)...then you'll know that it's an EQ/Mix issue. Try playing it on your monitors, phones, and a laptop speaker setup to get yet another reference for the sound.

I'm certainly no expert but if you know you want the kick to sit at ~12dB peak, then the rest is all up to EQ and compression to tweak it's presence in the mix.


Good luck

[dblock]

Find a spot on the meters that you want the kick to peak at (say, 12dB)...then you'll know that it's an EQ/Mix issue. Try playing it on your monitors, phones, and a laptop speaker setup to get yet another reference for the sound.

I'm certainly no expert but if you know you want the kick to sit at ~12dB peak, then the rest is all up to EQ and compression to tweak it's presence in the mix.


Good luck

Useful advice giantsteps. Thanks for the input.

[highkoo]

I definitely run into the same thing.
And I also know my monitors and phones and the correlation really really well. After years with them its pretty rare that Im surprised by something when A/Bing.
But I still have the tendency to want to bump up low end in the phones. And, even though it is a constant thing, and I commonly end up with boomy kicks on a first A/B, I still have to consciously tell myself not to crank kicks up when I go back to phones.
I dont know the cause of that, or the solution...
Ive always assumed that the monitors are "right". Ive thought about bumping up the bass on the signal to the phones to even it out, but I dont have a simple way to do that with precision atm...

[dblock]

I definitely run into the same thing.
And I also know my monitors and phones and the correlation really really well. After years with them its pretty rare that Im surprised by something when A/Bing.
But I still have the tendency to want to bump up low end in the phones. And, even though it is a constant thing, and I commonly end up with boomy kicks on a first A/B, I still have to consciously tell myself not to crank kicks up when I go back to phones.
I dont know the cause of that, or the solution...
Ive always assumed that the monitors are "right". Ive thought about bumping up the bass on the signal to the phones to even it out, but I dont have a simple way to do that with precision atm...

Thanks highkoo. You described it exactly.At least I don't feel like I'm the only one. I just finished mixing my song. I went with the monitors as the main reference and headphones second.I resisted the temptation to raise the kick volume in the phones which wasn't easy. Even without this problem I have a tendency to mix my kicks too loud. What's funny is that after I let my ears cool off a little and came back to it, The kick in the headphone was easier to hear. Maybe the kick was so hard to hear because I had just played the speakers and the direct comparison created a greater immediate contrast.
Maybe that's the trick. Walk away and come back.

[murnau]

You cant mix a kick on your headphones. Trust your monitors. You see what happens: The Low-End that the Headphones can't reproduce are there and listenable on the monitors. Also dont forget the In-Head- Seperation of Headphones.

[dblock]

You cant mix a kick on your headphones. Trust your monitors. You see what happens: The Low-End that the Headphones can't reproduce are there and listenable on the monitors. Also dont forget the In-Head- Seperation of Headphones.

Well said. Makes perfect sense. Thanks

[Wildfunk]

I noticed on the kicks that when the volume of the kick is just right to my ears in my headphones, they are too loud coming out of the speakers

The boost of the low freqs could also be a reason of this...

[dblock]

I noticed on the kicks that when the volume of the kick is just right to my ears in my headphones, they are too loud coming out of the speakers

The boost of the low freqs could also be a reason of this...

Thanks for posting that. Never realized there was a hump in the low end of the 650's.
I wonder if there's one as well in the genelecs. I guess unless you have phones with a flat response and speakers to match, they'll always be some level of compensation somewhere.

[fluffy_little_something]

My headphones sound very neutral and the bass and bass drum are rather weak, compared to my speakers. I guess that is normal, after all even good headphones have tiny speakers, which can't reproduce the bass properly. A 2-inch speaker is already huge for headphones, most have smaller ones. So what can you expect from that. There is a reason why bass speakers are 8 and more inches in diameter.

When it sounds good, yet not irritatingly low and powerful on the monitors, it should also sound good on the headphones, even if weaker. When I eq my bass stuff so that it sounds really deep on the headphones (by headphone standards), it it way too much on the monitors.

Just checked out your headphones, they have a high impedance (300 ohms), maybe your preamp is not strong enough to power them accordingly. Mine have only 32 ohms if I remember correctly. Your Sennheisers don't seem to be made for the studio in the first place. Maybe you would get better results with the good old HD 280 Pro. I have even seen the cheap HD 201 being used in studios

[dblock]

" maybe your preamp is not strong enough to power them accordingly. Mine have only 32 ohms if I remember correct"
You might have a point fluffy. I'm using an openlabs Neko XXL and it uses the presonus Firebox for it's preamps. Don't know anything about the ohms but I also have an older Benchmark DAC1 that I haven't been using but not for any particular reason. Don't know how they compare or if they do at all spec wise. Just the Neko was more convenient as far as reach but I think I'll give that a try.Sometimes an old piece of expensive gear isn't as good as a new piece of cheaper gear just because of improvements in technology but on the other hand......not in all cases.

[fluffy_little_something]

I don't know much about that, either, but I remember reading that headphones with a high ohm rating require a lot of juice so to speak

Here in the specs for your Presonus thingy it says for the headphone output:
Maximum Output: 150 mW/CH @ 60 Ohm Load
http://www.presonus.com/products/FireBox/techspecs

I forgot about the formula, but if I remember physics classes right, there might be only 30 mW per channel to driver your 300-ohm headphones... But maybe I am wrong, school was a long time ago

[dblock]

I don't know much about that, either, but I remember reading that headphones with a high ohm rating require a lot of juice so to speak

Here in the specs for your Presonus thingy it says for the headphone output:
Maximum Output: 150 mW/CH @ 60 Ohm Load
http://www.presonus.com/products/FireBox/techspecs

I forgot about the formula, but if I remember physics classes right, there might be only 30 mW per channel to driver your 300-ohm headphones... But maybe I am wrong, school was a long time ago

Just googling around and I think you are right. My old Dac-1 is about the same as far as ohm handling specs go but the newer versions are better. I'm not about to get off of $1100 though for an updated version of the Benchmark. I don't think I'd hear an $1100 difference but this definitely got me thinking fo somewhere down the line getting something that will help me get the most out of these 650's.Best headphones I ever had bar none.
Thanks for your input fluffy.

[fluffy_little_something]

What happens when you plug your headphones into a good HiFi amp? Those are made for much higher output voltages on the headphone output...

I have my headphones plugged into the headphone output of my active speakers.

[larm]

... they are too loud coming out of the speakers yet when I lower the volume on the kicks coming from the monitors, I can barely hear them in the 650 headphones. This is with or without using the sub..

You didn't say anything about the room, but maybe your acoustic environment has some LF issue(s)... Play some bass sines and wander about in your room to check for amplitude changes. Might be that your primary listening position is in an antinode or that your room has some LF resonance problems and you need some low freq room treatment

http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/r ... l/224.html