Mix Challenge - Gossip and Discussion

How to do this, that and the other. Share, learn, teach. How did X do that? How can I sound like Y?
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Compyfox wrote:But in a Business to Client (B2C) situation, chances are that the Engineer can be like "objective criticism on this one - I'd move this section, I'd change that section, etc" - to improve things.
That's absolutely right. And if you're the producer, you can sometimes even do those things without checking with the artist. However, this isn't the case with engineers, you need to verify changes, especially when doing something as crucial as leaving out a guitar solo. I would have been fine with leaving a lot of elements out, just not the guitar solo. It's a guitar solo!

Someone I know was produced by Rick Rubin. Rubin gave notes and suggested changes but it was still up to the band to decide whether they wanted to make those changes, and they often did not.
If we go by the fact that Android (Loz) removed stuff to make a song more streamlined in his opinion, but he's now disqualified for it... We also need to disqualify kbaccki due to the fact that he "added" stuff without asking (another thing that would scare away the client).
Yes, I agree with your sense of fairness and I honestly hate that anyone should get disqualified, especially this first time when we're still figuring it all out. In Loz's case, if it were only one or the other issue, I definitely would have opted for leaving him in.
And in your case Eric... even you. Since you put in the metronome, even if it was not(!) in the demo track.
I think Nine of Kings confirmed earlier in this thread that the metronome is supposed to be in the final mix. You're right, though, I didn't pay attention to that in the demo track and I'll happily be disqualified if that's what's called for. I'd like to give Loz the opportunity to make that decision, it seems only fair. :)

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Too many rules.

Good luck to the contributors!

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Uncle E wrote:Honestly, the scenarios you're describing are production and you should be getting production or even remix credits in those cases.
Quite possibly. A recent client gave me a guitar track that was effectively a solo that lasted the entire length of the song (I guess he was jamming ideas throughout the whole song). He then asked me if I would use bits that worked and discard bits that didn't. Not only did this involve a mute/unmute approach but it also involved creating a 'pool' of audio snippets that I had freedom to use wherever I felt it worked best (as certain parts were great but worked better elsewhere in the song). As this is something well within my skill set I jumped at it and he was really pleased with what I'd done but another engineer might have either just not been able to do it or insisted on charging extra for arrangement/production credits etc. No two jobs are the same in this business - one of the things I love about it but you've got me thinking about the distinction between things (and charging extra!). I've only been dong this professionally for about a year and a half so I'm definitely still learning certain aspects of the job.
Mastering from £30 per track \\\
Facebook \\\ #masteredbyloz

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@Uncle E:
Well, again... technically Loz disqualified himself since he updated a new revision. Something that would disqualify you in other competitions as well. Not because he left out a guitar since he felt it was for a more streamlined feel.

:shrug:


hibidy wrote:Too many rules.

Good luck to the contributors!
You wrote that before.
May I ask why you feel that way?


The rules for participating and submitting are darn simple, though written in a long form so that EVERYONE understands my crazy thinking behind those rules. No additional Q's needed. I seem to have failed on that behalf.


Basically you:
- have a time limit (2 full weeks) for submission, the next MC will maybe have 3 weeks for mixing and 1 week for voting, or I stick with 2/2 weeks to keep it more "on a timer"
- you are however not allowed to submit within the first 24 hours, also see rule below regarding "resubmissions", which clearly aims at that
- you can do what you want in terms of using mix tools (while sticking to the original production concept)
- but your mix shall ideally not exceed -18dBFS RMS / 0VU (@-18dBFS reference) on average signal strength
- you are not allowed to rearrange/remix the production
- you are not allowed to submit more than one version/revision, or update the submission - first entry is final
- you must at least submit a MP3, WAV is bonus for better analysis and not a must, but downloading must be possible (I hate SoundCloud and it's download limitations, period!)
- you must at least write a couple of sentences what you did, for bystanders to benefit


These are the submission rules summed up - 8 in total (unless I missed one).
Everything else is for the song providers (if you don't provide a song, none of your concern), then later for voting and winning stuff.


To me the rules are simple and just the right amount.
I still fail to see the problem other than that they are currently fully written out in the submission thread, rather than being cut to the essentials (which might scare off some people, hence my idea to have a global rules thread!)

Somebody PLEASE enlighten me?
Why are they "too many"?
Why do they "kill the fun of the competition?

For funks sake, you have FREE HAND in terms of using tools. Unless there is an additional rule like "use host internal plugins only". I didn't even rule out the use of hardware! Full Creative Freedom! Use what you have at your disposal, create a great mix with it. That simple.

And pretty much similar to rules like X contest on the interweb.


What gives?!
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Compyfox wrote:@Uncle E:
Well, again... technically Loz disqualified himself since he updated a new revision. Something that would disqualify you in other competitions as well. Not because he left out a guitar since he felt it was for a more streamlined feel.

:shrug:


hibidy wrote:Too many rules.

Good luck to the contributors!
You wrote that before.
May I ask why you feel that way?


The rules for participating and submitting are darn simple, though written in a long form so that EVERYONE understands my crazy thinking behind those rules. No additional Q's needed. I seem to have failed on that behalf.


Basically you:
- have a time limit (2 full weeks) for submission, the next MC will maybe have 3 weeks for mixing and 1 week for voting, or I stick with 2/2 weeks to keep it more "on a timer"
- you are however not allowed to submit within the first 24 hours, also see rule below regarding "resubmissions", which clearly aims at that
- you can do what you want in terms of using mix tools (while sticking to the original production concept)
- but your mix shall ideally not exceed -18dBFS RMS / 0VU (@-18dBFS reference) on average signal strength
- you are not allowed to rearrange/remix the production
- you are not allowed to submit more than one version/revision, or update the submission - first entry is final
- you must at least submit a MP3, WAV is bonus for better analysis and not a must, but downloading must be possible (I hate SoundCloud and it's download limitations, period!)
- you must at least write a couple of sentences what you did, for bystanders to benefit


These are the submission rules summed up - 8 in total (unless I missed one).
Everything else is for the song providers (if you don't provide a song, none of your concern), then later for voting and winning stuff.


To me the rules are simple and just the right amount.
I still fail to see the problem other than that they are currently fully written out in the submission thread, rather than being cut to the essentials (which might scare off some people, hence my idea to have a global rules thread!)

Somebody PLEASE enlighten me?
Why are they "too many"?
Why do they "kill the fun of the competition?

For funks sake, you have FREE HAND in terms of using tools. Unless there is an additional rule like "use host internal plugins only". I didn't even rule out the use of hardware! Full Creative Freedom! Use what you have at your disposal, create a great mix with it. That simple.

And pretty much similar to rules like X contest on the interweb.


What gives?!
I had a quick mix ready but realized I hadn't followed the rules. I'm okay with that though. I admit I don't understand the -18dBFS RMS stipulation, though it's completely fair to limit how loud the mix can be. I'm no producer... can it peak over -18dB sometimes?

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Compyfox wrote:@Uncle E:
Well, again... technically Loz disqualified himself since he updated a new revision. Something that would disqualify you in other competitions as well. Not because he left out a guitar since he felt it was for a more streamlined feel.

:shrug:
'tis true... plus I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I had to make a decision like that Uncle E (I'm a sensitive soul)! I broke the rules fair and square (I didn't read them thoroughly enough) - my own fault.
Mastering from £30 per track \\\
Facebook \\\ #masteredbyloz

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hibidy wrote:Too many rules.

Good luck to the contributors!
We're all getting disqualified… if you submit later in the week you may actually be the only one left… :tu:

:lol:
You need to limit that rez, bro.

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arkmabat wrote:I admit I don't understand the -18dBFS RMS stipulation, though it's completely fair to limit how loud the mix can be. I'm no producer... can it peak over -18dB sometimes?
Read here:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 2#p5777372

Middle section of the post, which adds a ton of links to other threads.
And/Or also consult my KVR marks.

YES, sometimes going over -18dB RMS up to -15dB RMS (or 0VU to +3VU with a referene level of -18dBFS) is allowed.



Gain Staging (the technique) is all over the place as of late, and it's still not understood. That's it... I think I'll prepare a video on this topic for Mix Challence 02 and upload it to my server - think end of the month if I have some spare time. Though no YouTube since I don't have an account yet. But since my written tutorials seem to be confusing, I see no other solution. Even if I planned it for a later chapter in a still-in-progress video series (since basic metering knowledge is needed for this topic).
[ Mix Challenge ] | [ Studio Page / Twitter ] | [ KVRmarks (see: metering tools) ]

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kbaccki wrote:
hibidy wrote:Too many rules.

Good luck to the contributors!
We're all getting disqualified… if you submit later in the week you may actually be the only one left… :tu:

:lol:
I'm sitting here and started giggling at this post... It is all getting a bit silly - I think it might be all my fault actually... sorry!!! :dog: Maybe we should look at this comp as the dress rehearsal and perhaps hold the prizes until the next one? I absolutely, will, not, break the rules next time!
Mastering from £30 per track \\\
Facebook \\\ #masteredbyloz

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kbaccki wrote:
hibidy wrote:Too many rules.

Good luck to the contributors!
We're all getting disqualified… if you submit later in the week you may actually be the only one left… :tu:

:lol:
:hihi:

Nope, I'm not submitting. I'm not even going to read those rules. It was fun to mess around with the tracks though. I really just wanted to work on my mix practice.

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hibidy, just enter the competition, no one will laugh (too hard).

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It's actually a really good tune to mix... Lots going on, good lead and bgv harmonies, structurally interesting, some core problems w/ source files, etc. Take a shot! :tu:
You need to limit that rez, bro.

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Compyfox wrote: Gain Staging (the technique) is all over the place as of late, and it's still not understood. That's it... I think I'll prepare a video on this topic for Mix Challence 02 and upload it to my server - think end of the month if I have some spare time.
:tu: That would be fantastic...
You need to limit that rez, bro.

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This was a great way for me to get to know Sonar X3 either way. Certaiinly not a waste for me.

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Oh no, I hope that isn't what people thought I was implying. I'm just saying that there are too many rules. Should be the best sounding mix wins, not everything has to fit such a specific anal set of rules that you'll be the weakest link before you even get started :hihi:

I'm glad nine gave us the song, I always enjoy this type of stuff.

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