Mix Challenge - Gossip and Discussion

[Mercado_Negro]

Geez, the party started. Sorry, I was very busy these past days. I read a few pages and there too many rules, less fun that way in my opinion. Anyways, my question is, can I just download the OP file and start mixing? I'll read all the rules this weekend (yeah, it was really boring and not fun at all those rules).

[Uncle E]

Geez, the party started. Sorry, I was very busy these past days. I read a few pages and there too many rules, less fun that way in my opinion. Anyways, my question is, can I just download the OP file and start mixing? I'll read all the rules this weekend (yeah, it was really boring and not fun at all those rules).

Yes, just begin mixing! We're working these rules out, they should be more concise in the future.

[Mercado_Negro]

Geez, the party started. Sorry, I was very busy these past days. I read a few pages and there too many rules, less fun that way in my opinion. Anyways, my question is, can I just download the OP file and start mixing? I'll read all the rules this weekend (yeah, it was really boring and not fun at all those rules).

Yes, just begin mixing! We're working these rules out, they should be more concise in the future.

Cool! I'm downloading the data, I'll check it in a bit... Thanks!

[photonic]

http://www.astroimages.at/musik/KVR/dou ... otonic.mp3

I love the way Photonic separated the guitar parts and end vocal. It makes me wonder how creative people might have gotten had all the vocals been separated.

Thank you very much!
Nice to see that it works and that such editing is accepted.

[Halma]

...
We'll assemble them all into the first post when the voting begins. Any comments on my mix? It was weird for me to mix in LCR, a lot of the mixes I reference are LCR but they all have a lot more parts going on.

LCR?

...

LCR = Left / Center / Right

LCR is actually an oldschool mixing concept based on the hardware limitation of old mixing desks. There was a time when mixing desks came without a pan pot but with the option to route the signal either to the right channel, the left channel or BOTH channels.

But what does that mean? Normally all natural sound SOURCES are mono. Eg we only have one mouth and not two so no stereo speaking/singing etc. But we listen "in stereo" because if we turn our head around while listening to the mono source the distance between the source and our right ear as well as the distance bewteen the sound source and our left ear is changing. So one of the signals our ears are receiving will be delayed in time. Plus some other stuff like wall reflection etc. Our brain is doing the rest. It assmebles everything and gives us an calculated acoustic impression of our environment.

So what`s the difference between mono and stereo?

Sound = energy. Speaker = reproduction of energy aka moving membranes.

Mono means that if you have a 2-Speaker-Setup then the same energy is coming from each speaker AT THE SAME TIME. Someone might think we listen to only one speaker which sits between the right & left one. But there is none. It´s a psycho-acoustic illusion. Equal energy distribuition.

Stereo means that if you have a 2-Speaker-Setup then the same energy is coming from each speaker AT A DIFFERENT TIME. Unqual energy distribution.

So for every stem or track you have to make a decision: do you wanna have in on both or only one speaker. And if only one then which one? This is crucial: there is no INBETWEEN. There is only "either or". That might sound akward to some of us especially on headphones. Imagine a solo guitar part only on the left speaker and nothing is coming from the other one? That sounds pretty unusual at first. But now think about how to get rid of this emptyness on the other side? Remember: the only rule is that if you wanna avoid a CENTER effect that both signals have to be different either in frequency or time or both. If they are not you wil have a center image.

Eg you could add a delayed copy of the same signal on the opposite site (Haas effect, Slap back Echo etc...something without feedback). Adjust gain and you are done. Or use some kind of counter instrument like a second guitar. Pan one hard left and the other hard right.

The idea is to keep the most important stuff center. For me that would be kick, snare & lead vox. All other sounds can be either hard panned left and/or right. Even the bass. This is Indie Rock Electro, not EDM House Techno...each genre/recording needs it´s own focus.

What I really like is that with this concept your mixes sounds brutally wide and they need far less eqing because of frequency masking. Trouble in getting two identical sounding parts together? Dang, hardpan one left, the other one right: fixed. Both signals can now distribute their energy on their own speaker without intefering/masking the other one. No need to eq them against each other anymore.

But I often use some other non LCR stuff on top of it. So it is not set in stone. But I am still careful while doing it because I have put so much work into my carefully made mix decisions that if I would ignore the LCR concept from now on all my earlier attempts in creating a rich mix could be destroyed.

Here is a good read about it from Tom Moulton:Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Phantom Image

Regards
Sebastian

[macmurphy]

too many rules. in a mixing competition we should be provided the tracks/stems and be able to go about the mix in whatever way we see fit.

all these rules just suck the joy and fun out of anything like this.

[Halma]

And I totally forgot to thank the contributor of the stems. Great song. Really.

At first I thought "meehh...that´s pretty simple" but that was only my first impression. I realized pretty fast that those tracks offer you a lot of freedom in shaping the mix. Not only "pan, adjust gain, compress, reverb...bäm! done" but also editing and pushing the song to the next level with some own ideas.

I never mixed somebody else stuff. I never worked with real recordings before. (Well, on my own in my own small studio where I only produce my own stuff). Of course I tried it one or two times with some stems friends sent me but I never finished them.

So I really appreciate and dig the efforts you guys are doing. And a very nice song.

Regards
Sebastian

[do_androids_dream]

Appreciate the positive vibe and I'm happy that you could still learn something new. Even if you seem to do this for quite a while now as well.

So I guess that's a smile with a slight raise of the eyebrow then? All of my experience with music - composing (I've released quite a bit of electronic music on around 12 labels over the last 10 years or so), sound designing, mixing, mastering etc. has come from a very empirical, trial and error, up till 4am messing around and generally hands on approach. I'm not really a numbers guy at all. I manage to arrive at the points I need to be by primarily using my ears and then filling in the numbers when I have to. I have a bit of a philosophy, shall we say, that involves 'doing' first and reading later. I spent 12 years as a nurse before taking music seriously as a career and all I can say is the 'doing' part teaches you way, way more than the theory part - and a lot quicker too. My mixes/masters please my clients without my head being too full of numbers but when the timing's right (when I read your posts) I do grab a cuppa, sit down and do some more learning.

A story - I used to spend some time working with an engineer who worked heavily with the artists of the pop reggae sound of the 80's (UB40, Aswad, Maxi Priest et al - that 'scene') - he was using a compressor in Pro Tools and confessed to me that he had no clue of the theory behind what the dials did. He just turned the knobs till it sounded good. I bet there are many engineers like this - they just don't shout about it.

[Uncle E]

too many rules. in a mixing competition we should be provided the tracks/stems and be able to go about the mix in whatever way we see fit.

all these rules just suck the joy and fun out of anything like this.

The main rules to pay attention to are 1) don't do a remix (i.e. don't add or move anything) and 2) normalize to -3dB. I may dispel normalizing to -3 on next month's challenge but I don't want the early entrants to be put at an unfair disadvantage by us changing that rule now mid-competition.

Other than that, just have fun with it. It's a good song and you've got a good chance (given how few entries there are) at winning some great prizes. If we get over 20 entries by the end of this week, I'll donate another prize. Personally, I took a lot more chances with my mix than I normally would, specifically because I want to see how people respond. I've also gotten a lot out of listening to the ideas that other people brought to the mix. It's interesting how different each mix is so far!

[macmurphy]

oh so those are the rules? looking at compyfox's posts just did my head in.

[stardustmedia]

Interesting idea. But reading the the first 3 pages, I'm still very confused about the submitting and the rules, deadlines, etc.

Would someone mind to clear that up for me please?

[Compyfox]

Eric, please update the main post (the OP) with a topic name change and call this thread: "KVR Mix Challenge - Gossip and Discussion". This way people stop being confused.

Thanks.

Geez, the party started. Sorry, I was very busy these past days. I read a few pages and there too many rules, less fun that way in my opinion. Anyways, my question is, can I just download the OP file and start mixing? I'll read all the rules this weekend (yeah, it was really boring and not fun at all those rules).

too many rules. in a mixing competition we should be provided the tracks/stems and be able to go about the mix in whatever way we see fit.

all these rules just suck the joy and fun out of anything like this.

oh so those are the rules? looking at compyfox's posts just did my head in.

Interesting idea. But reading the the first 3 pages, I'm still very confused about the submitting and the rules, deadlines, etc.

Would someone mind to clear that up for me please?

The rules are clearly stated in the "submission thread", they are split into:
- Song Provider Rules
- Mix Participant Rules (added loudness info)
- Rules regarding voting
- Rules regarding winning

I wrote them in short form right(!) at the beginning of the OP in the "submission" thread. Meaning:
- what kind of challenge this is
- special rules (if any apply)
- where to find the original files
- time limit for the challenge
- time limit for the voting
- reminder: loudness information
- reminder: submission rules


Sorry about the following (I am in a bit of a grumpy mood right now after these posts). But if you find them boring, too much, or "sucking the fun out of it... Maybe you only have the attention span of the length of a Twitter post. Or maybe you also don't read manuals or EULA's (which I can understand, since I barely do that myself) - I don't know.

Both the One-Synth-Challenge and the Songwriting Competition have rules btw - and nobody said "they suck the fun out of it". Same with challenges and competitions on various remixing sites. Yes I've been there, and yes I did not agree with certain conditions of participation myself. My solution: no participation.

These rules are not there to kill the fun of the challenge - these rules are there to set boundaries, to answer FAQ's, to have a challenge that is on common ground, to have access to the files without signing up ANYWHERE. They are as simple as it can get without the constant questions "how do we do this? how do we go about that? is that even allowed?!"

Not your cup of tea, don't participate. As harsh as it might sound.

The main rules to pay attention to are 1) don't do a remix (i.e. don't add or move anything)

"Moving" is a term that comes up a lot in there, especially if I take a look at Halma's recent post (editing). Editing would indeed mean (in my experience) to cut up and clean stuff. To a certain extend even move it around, etc.

Let's say say "do not rearrange anything if it wasn't there to begin with". Remixing is an own world in itself.

2) normalize to -3dB. I may dispel normalizing to -3 on next month's challenge but I don't want the early entrants to be put at an unfair disadvantage by us changing that rule now mid-competition.

No, please do NOT normalize to -3dBFS.

Here's a guide on proper gain staging and mixing again:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=391672

And once more, the post I made earlier - very same topic:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 4#p5775714 (middle section!)

If we just mix by our guts, there's nothing to learn here.

Again: mix with a average signal strength of -18dbFS = 0 VU or up to -15dBFS / +3VU max, and the maximum signal strength of -3dBFS digital peak will barely ever reached.

Reason why:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic ... 4#p5775714 (see bottom part, post the last quote)



It's not that hard to understand, is it?

A story - I used to spend some time working with an engineer who worked heavily with the artists of the pop reggae sound of the 80's (UB40, Aswad, Maxi Priest et al - that 'scene') - he was using a compressor in Pro Tools and confessed to me that he had no clue of the theory behind what the dials did. He just turned the knobs till it sounded good. I bet there are many engineers like this - they just don't shout about it.

I could tell you very similar stories. Worse even.

Some of the worst are about "audio school teachers" that try to teach you something. But if you pull them into an argument or different viewpoint, they are lost or tell you "everyone does it, so it's right to do so". I even had a teacher in my trainee days that said "it's not written in the book - I don't know about it".

But hey... those people set the rules, not those that actually learned how to do it right. And with the attention span of users these days, I am not the least surprised that this is happening, others simply adapt and then we have arguments like this.

[do_androids_dream]

...others simply adapt and then we have arguments like this.

This is why I stepped back and realised that I don't actually have much of an argument - just experience that informs me - which is by no means the 'correct' way of doing things - just the way 'I' do things...

[do_androids_dream]

...And with the attention span of users these days...

Attention span + the mesmerising amount of (and availability of) often heavily conflicting information. It becomes tougher and tougher to discern these days.

[stardustmedia]

thanks compyfox

here's the link to the submission thread for all who came in late to the game like i did:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=413297