Magix drop Samplitude dongle...

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MotorMind wrote:
koolkeys wrote:...But it doesn't have the ability to extract a groove from a clip. It's something I really love about Sonar.
Once you grab all the transcients, you can do anything you want with it. It's just not tied down to deciphering any particular groove.
I do 'groove' quantizing now using neighboring MIDI tracks and breaking things down that way. But I use groove quantizing so little that I still consider it a sort of novelty feature IMO.

Greg

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siriusbliss wrote: I do 'groove' quantizing now using neighboring MIDI tracks and breaking things down that way. But I use groove quantizing so little that I still consider it a sort of novelty feature IMO.

Greg
For some styles of music (groove based genres such as hop-hop, etc) this is not a novelty, but an essential feature. The question is whether Magix want to appeal to producers in that arena and take a slice of that market.

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I don't think it's as much of a novelty feature as you think though. I don't personally use it, but it's a VERY highly requested feature in smaller hosts(since the majors have it already), and it seems to be pretty darn popular to do. People talk about it all the time, and I know that a LOT of people here do use it.

It may not be in Samplitude's target audience as much though, so I guess it may be novelty to them.

Brent
My host is better than your host

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'real' Groove quantize - Magix MAY considered it to be a mid-level feature that has some priority, but not as high priority as some other features they'll be rolling in over the next several months.

For now, between Audio Quantize, Remix Agent, Time Stretch, and some other features having to do with how the user works with objects, it's already possible to do some pretty wild stuff. And the audio-to-midi feature Kraznet shows in his video already works great at capturing kick drum or whatever - for overlay with a drum sampler such as Superior2. This midi track can be brought into a parallel project, re-grooved and then frozen to build an audio track, which can then be manipulated anyway you want. It's not a workaround, but rather opens up other options.

So, while it's not particularly handing you the groove, you're also not locked into any particular quantization, since you can set the resolution as much as you want on the audio quantize.

I've used this feature to some degree when working with video where you need a tighter groove to fit into a :32 second slot (for example).

Greg

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Personally, I'm extracting groove templates out of both MIDI and audio to use them as quantizing templates all the time. IMO a highly efficient way to somewhat liven things up or just make them "click". Especially in combination with Logic's extended parameter box (which, btw, is something I wish at least *one* other host would adopt, but so far there's really none) it's an incredibly powerful toolset when working with all sorts of grooves, timing, etc.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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Just curious, but what is in the extended parameter box?

Brent
My host is better than your host

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koolkeys wrote:Just curious, but what is in the extended parameter box?
Well, perhaps not much that you wouldn't already know functionality-wise, it's more or less bog standard in almost all sequencers. You can find certain extended quantizing options there (such as swing percentage, quantize strength and what not) and some other region related parameters (delay, velocity, etc).
But, here's the thing that makes the box special: It will instantly show you these mentioned values for any region you select. So, if you select a MIDI region, the box will display all the quantize, delay, velocity and whatever settings in detail instantly. Ex-freakin'-tremely handy when you want to compare some parts (especially in case you're dealing with stuff that needs finetuning of grooves).
No other sequencer will give you any such an option (to my knowledge at least), you usually have to open your piano roll (or list edit or whatever) to find out about quantization settings, and even then it's either quite some guesswork as you have to stare at notes and gridlines or another eyestraining mathematical process when you prefer to do such things in whatever event list editors. Gets even worse once you want to compare two parts.
In Logic, you select, say, a drum region, to instantly see you quantized it at 16th notes with, say, a 53% swing. Then you click on your bass part to notice it's got a higher swing percentage which probably is the reason why it won't be in the pocket with the drums. Or anything like that.

In addition, all these values can be in/decreased "mouse-slider-style", so it's very easy to experiment with different settings - rather than, say, selecting another quantize value and "mix" it with the previous value by using whatever keycommand for "iterative" quantize (which is what you have to do in Cubase, no idea about other hosts), just to almost never be able to go back to what you initially had (unless you use "fix quantize" or so).

Sorry, I really didn't want to get too much OT here, but this is one of *the* key features that made me switch to Logic from Cubase way back in the days and it's still one of the key reasons why I don't seem to be able to switch sequencers, even if, by the rest of its featureset, Logic is lacking quite behind compared to the other "big" players.
I seriously wish some other developers would "steal" certain MIDI (and parthandling based) features from Logic, as I'm absolutely unhappy with the recent development.
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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sascha wrote:I seriously wish some other developers would "steal" certain MIDI (and parthandling based) features from Logic, as I'm absolutely unhappy with the recent development.
as always, you're on par with my thinking, sascha ... ;) but don't wait for it ... seems the dev's still did not "get" why logic is the bomb ...
regards,
brok landers
BIGTONEsounddesign
gear is as good as the innovation behind it-the man

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siriusbliss wrote:'real' Groove quantize - Magix MAY considered it to be a mid-level feature that has some priority, but not as high priority as some other features they'll be rolling in over the next several months.

For now, between Audio Quantize, Remix Agent, Time Stretch, and some other features having to do with how the user works with objects, it's already possible to do some pretty wild stuff.
Which all mean nothing with those limitations of the DLV.

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MotorMind wrote:
siriusbliss wrote:'real' Groove quantize - Magix MAY considered it to be a mid-level feature that has some priority, but not as high priority as some other features they'll be rolling in over the next several months.

For now, between Audio Quantize, Remix Agent, Time Stretch, and some other features having to do with how the user works with objects, it's already possible to do some pretty wild stuff.
Which all mean nothing with those limitations of the DLV.
Not if you use them in DLV.
so-called 'limitations' mean nothing unless you treat them as limitations.
If what you have is working for you, then carry on...

Greg

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Well, if that's the case, then any host is equal to Samplitude. That is, if limitations are only limitations if you treat them that way.

In other words, that's a bit silly. Some limitations are either impossible to work around, or a royal pain to work around, especially when other options do NOT have to be worked around for the same price. I know I keep saying that, but it's the issue here.

Brent
My host is better than your host

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siriusbliss wrote: Not if you use them in DLV.
so-called 'limitations' mean nothing unless you treat them as limitations.
If what you have is working for you, then carry on...
Greg, by now we all know that you like Samplitude a lot. Which is perfectly fine. It's also fine that you mention some of the more or less innovative things Samplitude has on offer. I for one am always reading your (and Kraznet's) comments on it with interest as you seem to know quite some things. That's better information than what you get on Magix' site.

Still, for some potential users, there's several more or less severe limitations with this version, plus there's the rather high price, which still puts it apart from quite some of the competition. These things need to be pointed out and Magix might need threads like this to probably think about some other ideas to market Sampitude to a larger audience. I don't see too much points why this version needs to be defended too much (which is what you partially seem to do). I know, we all have our pet peeves (mine being Logic, as you may know by now), but I can see much more value in discussing flaws, showstoppers and drawbacks rather than trying to defend anything (having said that, if you read my posts occasionally, you will know that I'm the very first to complain about Logic).
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.

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Sascha Franck wrote:I don't see too much points why this version needs to be defended too much (which is what you partially seem to do). I know, we all have our pet peeves (mine being Logic, as you may know by now), but I can see much more value in discussing flaws, showstoppers and drawbacks rather than trying to defend anything (having said that, if you read my posts occasionally, you will know that I'm the very first to complain about Logic).
Just to put this clear (maybe it isn't necessary, but I'll say it anyway): Greg isn't a Samplitude 'fanboy' or such, without reflecting what he says. He's one of the people we rely on quite early during the development process, and he's got a very extended view on the program, perhaps even more then some of us devs here. When there's something odd, faulty, unclear etc. Greg (among others) says it directly and clear. 'flaws, showstoppers and drawbacks', as you put it.
But he has also seen the long road we've gone, and he also knows enough to expect us continuing the work we've started. That's perhaps why he might feel like defending things a bit, as he knows what is all possible, that scratching the surface is often not enough and many tasks can be performed in other ways, if mind, ears and eyes are open.
BTW: 'open minded'... of course we read this discussion. I'm not into marketing, so I can't (and I won't) comment on certain complaints. But from a developer's point of view, many brought-up aspects are valid. That surely doesn't mean we weren't happy if people like a certain feature and let others know ;)
Sascha Eversmeier
drummer of The Board
software dev in the studio-speaker biz | former plugin creator [u-he, samplitude & digitalfishphones]

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i have one question: why do people consider sam to be mainly good for audio and rather weak in midi?
i used the last few days to really burrow deep into the sam 10 download demo and sam music studio, and i'm very impressed, also with the midi side.
well, i'm used to reaper, so i might be contended with little, but still..
is it only in such groove template things etc. that have been mentioned above where logic/cubase et al still rule, or do the other hosts have some fundamental advantages in the midi arena?

(i'm asking cause i want to upgrade from sam music studio/reaper to either samplitude or eventually cubase if it should really be far superior in its midi capabilities)



cheers

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I don't think anyone is saying that it's weak at MIDI, just that their target audience is more made up of audio users.

Brent
My host is better than your host

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