Seems to be a perennial complaint with Cubase, but thought I'd ask anyway... is there a way to map MIDI controller data from a MIDI track (either recorded into a MIDI part, or on an associated automation track) onto an arbitrary automation parameter of a VSTi?
Some web searching suggests that the answer is no. If the VSTi exposes the parameter by a MIDI control, then no problem... except the problem is, VSTi authors are not always conscientious about documenting the MIDI controller mappings. Ironically, Steinberg is among the worst about this!
Quick controls are great for recording automation data onto a VSTi track directly from MIDI, but I can't locate any setting whereby controller data on a MIDI track can be passed forward to VST automation using the quick controller mapping. (It seems that quick controls respond to MIDI messages from the hardware but don't do anything with MIDI messages being played back.)
Am I missing something? Or did Steinberg really choose to put arbitrary limits on how you use data in the MIDI tracks? (They're all just numbers... why can't I plug the numbers from one place to another?)
Use case, off the top of my head -- say I want to control filter envelope decay per note. If I'm lucky, the VSTi will let me do it by velocity, but it seems few of them allow that level of control -- you could control mod env level by velocity, but not A, D, S or R. Currently it appears I would have to set up mod env decay as an automation parameter in the instrument track, and then coordinate two different editors: key/list editor for note data and automation track for decay data. It would be a lot more convenient to edit the decay events as a controller lane in the MIDI part. And forget about generating note+decay data algorithmically in a programming language and importing as a MIDI file... hah!
Thanks,
James
Cubase CC data in MIDI part --> VSTi automation parameter?
-
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 27 posts since 12 Sep, 2006 from Guangzhou, China
-
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Yes. I don't know what instrument one isn't able to do this with, but it isn't a problem of Cubase's.dewdrop_world wrote:... complaint with Cubase... is there a way to map MIDI controller data from a MIDI track (either recorded into a MIDI part, or on an associated automation track) onto an arbitrary automation parameter of a VSTi?
Do it from a midi track -
"...coordinate two different editors: key/list editor for note data and automation track for decay data."
No need. You open up the appropriate automation lane in key editor. set up the parameters you require in setup.
(in the bottom left corner add lanes that you've enabled to use in setup by clicking the + sign.
once you've drawn a value, it will also be an option in the track lanes/project window.)
then you just assign that controller or aftertouch etc, according to how the instrument's GUI gets you to assign automation.
(I never used 'instrument tracks', so I don't know if what you described is problematic in that scenario. Using vstis the regular way, with an instrument out of the vsti rack simply works as I have described.
-
- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 27 posts since 12 Sep, 2006 from Guangzhou, China
I fully understood this before posting, piece of cake. But there's the sticking point too -- "according to how the instrument's GUI gets you to assign automation" -- what if this doesn't exist, or is not documented?jancivil wrote:Yes. I don't know what instrument one isn't able to do this with, but it isn't a problem of Cubase's.dewdrop_world wrote:... complaint with Cubase... is there a way to map MIDI controller data from a MIDI track (either recorded into a MIDI part, or on an associated automation track) onto an arbitrary automation parameter of a VSTi?
Do it from a midi track -
"...coordinate two different editors: key/list editor for note data and automation track for decay data."
No need. You open up the appropriate automation lane in key editor. set up the parameters you require in setup.
(in the bottom left corner add lanes that you've enabled to use in setup by clicking the + sign.
once you've drawn a value, it will also be an option in the track lanes/project window.)
then you just assign that controller or aftertouch etc, according to how the instrument's GUI gets you to assign automation.
E.g., something simple like Monologue -- Steinberg didn't bother to publish the midi cc spec. If you're lucky somebody did something like this but if they didn't... get some coffee and start twiddling knobs, 'cuz you'll be doing that for a while until you find the cc #s.
That's the crux of my "complaint" -- should be easy but the information just might not be there. Right, that's not a Cubase problem but an issue with VSTi vendors.
(I'm coming from a DIY-programming background (supercollider) where you can route anything anywhere, so it's perhaps understandable that I would chafe against my routing possibilities being at the mercy of developers aiming for a medium-common-denominator. But DAWs are what they are...)
My terminology is probably not right. I just mean a track in a project that is hosting a VSTi (and receiving MIDI from 1 or more true MIDI tracks), not the all-in-one VSTi+MIDI thing.I never used 'instrument tracks'
James
-
- KVRAF
- 25053 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
yeah, the 'instrument tracks' I put in quotes when I mean that new-fangled way... hijacked name...
I was mystified by your post actually, all guesses here.
just for future reference, that area of CCs is used by a fair # of devs for stuff, 'undefined 21-26' is a good place to start.
It is weak to not have things documented. I'm someone to just move on, unless I get obsessed by a problem. I don't like doing work to figure out something like that Monologue situation... I'd abandon it. I'm just a composer of music, I am not that fascinated by the guts of the machine in any case. I've had to describe loop points in hexadecimal with no GUI at all, so I'm all about an EZ 2 Unnerstan GUI and embracing teh lazy.
I was mystified by your post actually, all guesses here.
just for future reference, that area of CCs is used by a fair # of devs for stuff, 'undefined 21-26' is a good place to start.
It is weak to not have things documented. I'm someone to just move on, unless I get obsessed by a problem. I don't like doing work to figure out something like that Monologue situation... I'd abandon it. I'm just a composer of music, I am not that fascinated by the guts of the machine in any case. I've had to describe loop points in hexadecimal with no GUI at all, so I'm all about an EZ 2 Unnerstan GUI and embracing teh lazy.
-
- KVRian
- 603 posts since 14 Mar, 2002
Just in case your problem persists...:
Today I wanted to apply a reverb dry/mix parameter curve to single notes in a sequence and I really did NOT want to fiddle with the key editor for the notes and the arrangement window for small pieces of automation data. The reverb dry/wet parameter was definitely not midi controllable. And what, if I edit the notes in the sequence? The automation data would not move with the notes.
No, I wanted to have automation curves sticked to single midi notes!
I did the following:
1) you need a midi loopback driver. (http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/loopMIDI.html Virtual loopback MIDI cable for Windows XP up to Windows 7, 32 and 64 bit)
Set up one port, name it "GR in" or similar.
In cubase Device setup, midi Tab, you will see the "GR in" in both, the input and the output section. Make sure that the GR in input is NOT included in "all midi in", uncheck this! And be careful so that you won't establish a feedback!
2) one MIDI track is routed to VSTi. Create another one, which is routed out to "GR in" port. This will hold the CC data for the automation parameter you want to control. (you could do with one midi track, too, and use a midi send fx to route cc data on this track to the "GR in" port, but you have to make sure that the VSTi does not respond to this cc, or, you can filter it out with a transformer. Then, set the midi fx to "pre fader".
In my opinion, two separate MIDI tracks fit best. One routed to the VSTi, the other to the "GR in" port. You can mark parts on both tracks and edit them simultaneously in the key editor and have your cc data in context with your notes.
3) go to Device setup and add a new generic remote device. Delete all default controllers, and set the Input Port to "GR in".
This way, MIDI data (live, or an a track) send to "GR in" are effectively send to the generic remote via the loopback port.
4) Set up the Controller cc# you want to use for Controlling the automation parameter on the top of the generic Remote dialog, flag it "receive". Bellow specify the automation parameter you want to Control anywhere in the mixer (for example the wet/dry Parameter of the Reverb sitting in an insert of the VSTi which plays your notes)
4) You're Done. Draw a cc curve for the cc# you specified in the generic remote (or play life and/or record the midi cc data from a midi device). Playing back will send the cc to "GR in", the generic remote translates this to any automation parameter. Edit your Automation Data in contest with your notes in One Single Place, the Key Editor. Cc Data is Moves with the notes accordingly, too.
you could Even go the other way: use another loopback port "GR out", Set the Output of the generic remote to this port, Set up the generic Remote accordingly, and your Automation Parameter Moves In a VST GUI (by mouses, Quick Control, another generic remote or any other Remote device) is translated to MIDI and recordable through midi Port "GR out".
just Be carefull with reordering the Tracks or VSTs As this influences the generic remotes Order of parameters, and prevent midi Feedback or collision of a parameter automation track with this MIDI to automation method.
Today I wanted to apply a reverb dry/mix parameter curve to single notes in a sequence and I really did NOT want to fiddle with the key editor for the notes and the arrangement window for small pieces of automation data. The reverb dry/wet parameter was definitely not midi controllable. And what, if I edit the notes in the sequence? The automation data would not move with the notes.
No, I wanted to have automation curves sticked to single midi notes!
I did the following:
1) you need a midi loopback driver. (http://www.tobias-erichsen.de/loopMIDI.html Virtual loopback MIDI cable for Windows XP up to Windows 7, 32 and 64 bit)
Set up one port, name it "GR in" or similar.
In cubase Device setup, midi Tab, you will see the "GR in" in both, the input and the output section. Make sure that the GR in input is NOT included in "all midi in", uncheck this! And be careful so that you won't establish a feedback!
2) one MIDI track is routed to VSTi. Create another one, which is routed out to "GR in" port. This will hold the CC data for the automation parameter you want to control. (you could do with one midi track, too, and use a midi send fx to route cc data on this track to the "GR in" port, but you have to make sure that the VSTi does not respond to this cc, or, you can filter it out with a transformer. Then, set the midi fx to "pre fader".
In my opinion, two separate MIDI tracks fit best. One routed to the VSTi, the other to the "GR in" port. You can mark parts on both tracks and edit them simultaneously in the key editor and have your cc data in context with your notes.
3) go to Device setup and add a new generic remote device. Delete all default controllers, and set the Input Port to "GR in".
This way, MIDI data (live, or an a track) send to "GR in" are effectively send to the generic remote via the loopback port.
4) Set up the Controller cc# you want to use for Controlling the automation parameter on the top of the generic Remote dialog, flag it "receive". Bellow specify the automation parameter you want to Control anywhere in the mixer (for example the wet/dry Parameter of the Reverb sitting in an insert of the VSTi which plays your notes)
4) You're Done. Draw a cc curve for the cc# you specified in the generic remote (or play life and/or record the midi cc data from a midi device). Playing back will send the cc to "GR in", the generic remote translates this to any automation parameter. Edit your Automation Data in contest with your notes in One Single Place, the Key Editor. Cc Data is Moves with the notes accordingly, too.
you could Even go the other way: use another loopback port "GR out", Set the Output of the generic remote to this port, Set up the generic Remote accordingly, and your Automation Parameter Moves In a VST GUI (by mouses, Quick Control, another generic remote or any other Remote device) is translated to MIDI and recordable through midi Port "GR out".
just Be carefull with reordering the Tracks or VSTs As this influences the generic remotes Order of parameters, and prevent midi Feedback or collision of a parameter automation track with this MIDI to automation method.
-
- KVRian
- 603 posts since 14 Mar, 2002
which is fine, but has nothing to to with sequencing a VST Plugin Parameter with MIDI cc-Data using a MIDI track instead of Automation Data.
The Quick Controls just help, to Quickly Control a PlugIn Paramater with a Midi Controller. But the MIDI data is neither recorded, nor played back. Instead, only automation data is written for the movement of the Plugin Parameter.
That's a different thing.
The Quick Controls just help, to Quickly Control a PlugIn Paramater with a Midi Controller. But the MIDI data is neither recorded, nor played back. Instead, only automation data is written for the movement of the Plugin Parameter.
That's a different thing.
-
- KVRAF
- 6095 posts since 5 Jul, 2001 from Just about .... there
With the caveat that the parameters will be exposed via the learn. So you can use MIDI track to drive the learned param. At least that's how I think it works based on an IRC discussion I had. But, it's looks like it's going to be late February before I get a copy to test with.TabSel wrote:which is fine, but has nothing to to with sequencing a VST Plugin Parameter with MIDI cc-Data using a MIDI track instead of Automation Data.
The Quick Controls just help, to Quickly Control a PlugIn Paramater with a Midi Controller. But the MIDI data is neither recorded, nor played back. Instead, only automation data is written for the movement of the Plugin Parameter.
That's a different thing.
If you have to ask, you can't afford the answer
-
- KVRAF
- 6095 posts since 5 Jul, 2001 from Just about .... there
I don't know about elegant ... it's still a multi-step kludge. But, if it works .... Here's hoping.TabSel wrote:That would be quite elegant then.
If you have to ask, you can't afford the answer
-
- KVRAF
- 6095 posts since 5 Jul, 2001 from Just about .... there
It's funny you put it that way. I had assumed that's exactly why the MIDI learn stuff was added. But, the more I think about it and read the PDF, I'm not so sure my "assumption" is correct. Definitely something to play with when it gets here.TabSel wrote:Maybe the Note Expression feature has the possibility to have Controller Data routed to Vst Parameter...
If you have to ask, you can't afford the answer
-
- KVRian
- 603 posts since 14 Mar, 2002
Well, I guess you aren't able to control any VST parameter,
but only those, a VSTi exposes to the host.
However, I right now found a really good working solution even with C5.5.2
Its difficult to explain, but stable no matter how you rearrange tracks. Simply control any automatable VST parameter with midi cc on a midi track, and/or record any VST parameter change as MIDI cc
)
If anyone's interestes...?
but only those, a VSTi exposes to the host.
However, I right now found a really good working solution even with C5.5.2
Its difficult to explain, but stable no matter how you rearrange tracks. Simply control any automatable VST parameter with midi cc on a midi track, and/or record any VST parameter change as MIDI cc
)If anyone's interestes...?
-
- KVRist
- 39 posts since 1 Jul, 2010
yes, i'd love to know, cheers!TabSel wrote:Well, I guess you aren't able to control any VST parameter,
but only those, a VSTi exposes to the host.
However, I right now found a really good working solution even with C5.5.2
Its difficult to explain, but stable no matter how you rearrange tracks. Simply control any automatable VST parameter with midi cc on a midi track, and/or record any VST parameter change as MIDI cc
If anyone's interestes...?
-
- KVRist
- 39 posts since 1 Jul, 2010
nobody?yesandknow wrote:yes, i'd love to know, cheers!TabSel wrote:Well, I guess you aren't able to control any VST parameter,
but only those, a VSTi exposes to the host.
However, I right now found a really good working solution even with C5.5.2
Its difficult to explain, but stable no matter how you rearrange tracks. Simply control any automatable VST parameter with midi cc on a midi track, and/or record any VST parameter change as MIDI cc
If anyone's interestes...?
