Top-down piano rolls?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
So piano rolls in sequencers typically are left to right, showing the piano on the left. I am curious if any sequencers have ever tried a top-down approach, which seems much more intuitive to me, so you can more easily see the notes in relation to a real keyboard. It seems at least a worthy option a DAW could have.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- 11025 posts since 19 Jun, 2008 from Seattle
I agree. Been wanting this for ages. Like an old "player" piano basically...haven't seen it.braj wrote:So piano rolls in sequencers typically are left to right, showing the piano on the left. I am curious if any sequencers have ever tried a top-down approach, which seems much more intuitive to me, so you can more easily see the notes in relation to a real keyboard. It seems at least a worthy option a DAW could have.
I'm not a musician, but I've designed sounds that others use to make music. http://soundcloud.com/obsidiananvil
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- Hun #3
- 4260 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from A quaint little village just south of Hamburg, Germany
Top/down implies falling to me. Also I think it'd be awkward when it comes to automation. Bottom line for me would be that I'd rather have my western left/right reading paradigm than a keyboard that matches my real one I think.
It's hard to verify, but I even seem to remember imagining computer sequencers going from left to right even before I had seen my first one, back in the day ca late 90s - probably having notation in mind.
Marco
It's hard to verify, but I even seem to remember imagining computer sequencers going from left to right even before I had seen my first one, back in the day ca late 90s - probably having notation in mind.
Marco
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- KVRAF
- 2548 posts since 13 Mar, 2004
Top-down piano roll seems also kinda intuitive to me and I'd like to try it as I've my Midi keyboard directly in front of me. With horizontal piano roll I always have the feeling I have to think 'around the corner'. I've never tried it though as my DAW doesn't have this option and I wouldn't switch just for this possibility alone.
Just stumbled across this (but it's a tracker, nothing for me):
http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php? ... iano-roll/
Just stumbled across this (but it's a tracker, nothing for me):
http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php? ... iano-roll/
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- KVRAF
- 6113 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America
Awesome. i'd love to try that in place of the horizontal version, especially if, like trackers, it separated the scrolling regions into patterns (in standard DAWs, i guess that would be measures). Click an arrow to move back & forth between measures, so that the scrolling area only shows the current one and makes for focusing in on that one area.No_Use wrote:Top-down piano roll seems also kinda intuitive to me and I'd like to try it as I've my Midi keyboard directly in front of me. With horizontal piano roll I always have the feeling I have to think 'around the corner'. I've never tried it though as my DAW doesn't have this option and I wouldn't switch just for this possibility alone.
Just stumbled across this (but it's a tracker, nothing for me):
http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php? ... iano-roll/
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud
my music @ SoundCloud
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- KVRAF
- 25052 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
the timeline would go from top to bottom. I don't think that's going to work for too many people. as it is, pitch names go from top to bottom for low to high. 'intuitively' enough. what you want is a visual to accord with the keyboard in front of you at all costs here. it isn't thought through. the problems of automation, controller lanes, the very timeline, chronology, will have occured I would have thought to anyone that's worked with a piano roll beyond note entry.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
I'm talking about an option, an alternate view, not something you would use all the time. But for arranging some things it could be helpful. I am just wondering 'why not'. And sure, I used Master Tracks back in the 80's and that was all left>right. Just with technology we can do things and present things in so many ways, and this seems like a useful way to me.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- Hun #3
- 4260 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from A quaint little village just south of Hamburg, Germany
Fair enough I guess - though I'm not sure what amount of bloat that would cause, seeing as you'd essentially have to give one sequencer two GUIs...
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- KVRAF
- 2697 posts since 3 Aug, 2003 from Narnia
Once-upon-a-time, in a land far,far away, there was a Creator who became a Notator...
Ahh... Those were the days...
Ahh... Those were the days...
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
Yes! Now all I need is an Atari ST (they had built-in midi ports!).
I was thinking if someone really wants this feature in any DAW there is a simple solution: get a second monitor and put it on its side. Then you can just open your piano roll there and viola! Actually some monitors/software will allow you to rotate your display. I did this for my Reason rack a long time ago, so the rack fit nearly perfectly, though the monitor itself was crap, it worked really well. I am surprised portrait displays are no longer common. My first Mac SE-30 had a nice big for the time portrait display.
I was thinking if someone really wants this feature in any DAW there is a simple solution: get a second monitor and put it on its side. Then you can just open your piano roll there and viola! Actually some monitors/software will allow you to rotate your display. I did this for my Reason rack a long time ago, so the rack fit nearly perfectly, though the monitor itself was crap, it worked really well. I am surprised portrait displays are no longer common. My first Mac SE-30 had a nice big for the time portrait display.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRian
- 593 posts since 14 Apr, 2005
I used this on an Atari back in the days. It's pattern based. Seems it's available for win now:
http://www.ronimusic.com/s16_win.htm
/Johnny
http://www.ronimusic.com/s16_win.htm
/Johnny
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- KVRAF
- 4222 posts since 23 Feb, 2004 from Tucson Arizona USA
It's hard to think of the proposal as "alternative", since I don't know anyone who plays keyboard instruments by sitting with keys perpendicular to them. Even I, known to play the piano from above by laying lengthwise on the piano case, have never tried that. Standing with right up against the "low A" end, I can lean over and just barely reach to the high C. And this is exactly how I perceive the vertical orientation of the keyboard in piano roll sequencers...braj wrote:I'm talking about an option, an alternate view, not something you would use all the time. But for arranging some things it could be helpful. I am just wondering 'why not'. And sure, I used Master Tracks back in the 80's and that was all left>right. Just with technology we can do things and present things in so many ways, and this seems like a useful way to me.
On the other hand, I'm quite sure that the common arrangement we see derives from the convention of "X axis is the Time Domain in Cartesian systems" and also possibly from practical matters of screen graphics refresh performance and so forth.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
Imagine a sequencer that could show at the flick of a keystroke/button all the tracks vertically, you could see all of the notes that are played in sequence as they go by, not just some small representation of them. I may make a mock-up screenshot using Reaper, it seems like a really amazing feature no one has implemented to me, at least not recently based on the ST screenshots
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
http://flic.kr/p/bvb2dg
The little mockup I threw together. But you could have shortcuts to show different views obviously, it cwould be a big help to me and almost like a visual aide to see everything that is playing in the mix. It is much easier to go 'oh, that is a c chord' and 'hear' what is onscreen. It would be just way more musical. Not instead of, but in addition to what is standard now.
The little mockup I threw together. But you could have shortcuts to show different views obviously, it cwould be a big help to me and almost like a visual aide to see everything that is playing in the mix. It is much easier to go 'oh, that is a c chord' and 'hear' what is onscreen. It would be just way more musical. Not instead of, but in addition to what is standard now.
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- 5624 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium
a big +1 from me. I also have wanted this for a long time. Make it as an option (DAW makers). This type of keyboard view is a god send when, for example, I need to check the chord progression of a long forgotten track. I'd rather be looking at a horizontal keyboard, than a vertical one in that situation.
This is software right? Nothing is set in stone. Have a button 'flip keyboard into horizontal view'. We have so many options in most hosts to show various view panels, resizing mixers, docking this, and docking that, which makes a simple option to 'flick the keyboard view' a simple affair. Even if it meant that once it is positioned into the horizontal view, some information (controller, etc) is gone. That's fine. In the horizontal view, I'd just check the notes, nothing else, then flip back to vertical to regain the rest of stuff normally displayed.
Hardware sequencers had this...mind
This is software right? Nothing is set in stone. Have a button 'flip keyboard into horizontal view'. We have so many options in most hosts to show various view panels, resizing mixers, docking this, and docking that, which makes a simple option to 'flick the keyboard view' a simple affair. Even if it meant that once it is positioned into the horizontal view, some information (controller, etc) is gone. That's fine. In the horizontal view, I'd just check the notes, nothing else, then flip back to vertical to regain the rest of stuff normally displayed.
Hardware sequencers had this...mind
