KVR Audio

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:54 am

my friend. Well, maybe?

Can anyone say 'fragmentation'. The introduction rate of a new, proprietry, plugin formats seems to be accelarating.

1) AudioUnits
ubiqitously-supported VST2 becomes sparsely-supported VST3 (and introduces the features we already had)
multi-format Pluggo becomes proprietry Max4Live
Cakewalk introduces Sonar-only ProChannel plugin format
RTAS ostensibly superceded by AAX. Goodbye legacy RTAS plugins, and some VST wrapper solutions (eg Kore2)
Propellerheads Rack Extension

Disconcerting.

Post by **Ben [KVR]** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 11:56 am

whyterabbyt wrote:Disconcerting.

Yup.

danbroad · Post by **danbroad** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:00 pm

The times, they are a changin'.....

...The music industry learnt about unification after the 1970's with MIDI, and a whole world of interfacing problems went away. What the music industry needs to learn again is the unification of all the plugin formats, in terms of control and compatibility, so a whole new world of problems can disappear.... Not in 2012, it seems.

Entropy, the tendency of things toward chaos unless kept in check.

Richard_Synapse · Post by **Richard_Synapse** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:03 pm

In Protools you can use Vienna Ensemble Pro to host AudioUnits. I haven't tested it myself, but had very positive feedback regarding stability.

But of course, as a developer I more than agree on your point- especially on formats which do 100% the exact same thing and offer nothing new or unique (Rack Extensions might be different).

Richard

T-CM11 · Post by **T-CM11** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:05 pm

As I see it, A "plugin format" that can be used by 1 host only isn't a really plugin (like AU or VST), but more like a feature for that host.

Max4Live, ProChannel, Kore2, RE... aren't they just the same as Fruity generators/fx or Logic/Cubase/Sonar built-in instrumens/fx (other hosts have them too)?

At least RE is open to other developers... isn't that a good thing?

liquid wind · Post by **liquid wind** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:11 pm

I think VST will continue to be the standard -because- it is openly useable, but I have to agree that the move towards proprietary formats is concerning, at the very least it means slowed development because a developer might have to support 5 or more different standards

and I'm jealous because no one makes third party fruity plugs when the SDK has been available for years :/

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:23 pm

mmmmm...while other industries are going to some form of standardized procedures we seem to be wanting to go backwards to having to find all sorts of different scenarios here....

christianmusicmaker · Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:28 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:my friend. Well, maybe?

Can anyone say 'fragmentation'. The introduction rate of a new, proprietry, plugin formats seems to be accelarating.

1) AudioUnits
ubiqitously-supported VST2 becomes sparsely-supported VST3 (and introduces the features we already had)
multi-format Pluggo becomes proprietry Max4Live
Cakewalk introduces Sonar-only ProChannel plugin format
RTAS ostensibly superceded by AAX. Goodbye legacy RTAS plugins, and some VST wrapper solutions (eg Kore2)
Propellerheads Rack Extension

Disconcerting.

I like the idea of RE and what it brings to the Reason table but the after affects of it could reach further than even Propellerheads actually want it to. If Propellerheads get enough Devs onboard I think Cakewalk are very likely to extend thier ProChannel format to include instruments to compete. It would not surprise me. I'm sure they would rather not fragment the market further still but I doubt they want to do Propellerheads and Steinberg any favours either.

Cakewalks transition to a walled format for Sonar Instruments would have be pretty compelling. A much deeper integration with Sonar would be needed. Not sure how it would work. But I really think after reading about Props it is something they will now at least consider. RE might be marketed as solving this or that problem but the 30% cut and driving customers into the Reason Eco system and driving sales there is what this is all about.

I think Cakewalk will extend their ProChannel format. Especially if Re and the new Prop Shop really takes off. I would not put it past Apple to do the same for Logic with even more fragmentation. They are not far off it already so the future might be increased gradual fragmentation of plugin development.

This might be the new (walled in) plugin landscape that devs have to adapt to in order to compete or even survive. Maybe they have to prepare themselves for multiple formats specific to a single host. VST will be around for a long time no doubt but not nearly with as much clout as it does now if fragmentation continues beyond RE.

Choice for consumers is great and RE provides more of that but the downside is making that choice. RE Plugs should probably be sold as totally separate plugs in name and functionality. I don't see ports selling too well. But I see Cakewalk setting up a shop of their own like Props. Strange really as Cakewalk are further down the road than RE is regarding selling proprietary plugins..adding instruments would put them in the same space as Props (regarding RE) but it will fragment things even further while providing more choice. Time will tell if that is what users want.

Steinberg are less likely to do so (seems there is no real need as it will hurt VST) but if VST further down the line slips too far down devs priorities, expect Steinberg to set their plugin wall as well. Big if on that though as VST is in a very strong position currently but anything can change and usually does over time.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:34 pm

T-CM11 wrote:As I see it, A "plugin format" that can be used by 1 host only isn't a really plugin (like AU or VST), but more like a feature for that host.

I dont quite get you. Its a proprietary plugin format, but its still supporting synth and/or effect plugins, particularly third-party plugins.

What's not 'plugin' about them?

Max4Live, ProChannel, Kore2, RE... aren't they just the same as Fruity generators/fx or Logic/Cubase/Sonar built-in instrumens/fx (other hosts have them too)?

I dont think anyone else makes FL Generators. But they're definitely a proprietary plugin format too, so nothing else can use them.

I dont know if other hosts can use the plugins that ship with Cubase or Logic; I suspect not. Almost all of the plugins shipped with Sonar prior to ProChannel would run in other hosts though (except for two). That's why ProChannel worries me.

Kore2 isnt a plugin format, btw, its a plugin, its just one of the few that can host VST plugins and run in ProTools.

Max4Live allows Max/MSP-built plugins to run in Max. Its not native code, but it used to be that you could build them for VST and AU.

At least RE is open to other developers... isn't that a good thing?

Other host developers? Is it?

T-CM11 · Post by **T-CM11** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:42 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
T-CM11 wrote:As I see it, A "plugin format" that can be used by 1 host only isn't a really plugin (like AU or VST), but more like a feature for that host.
I dont quite get you. Its a proprietary plugin format, but its still supporting synth and/or effect plugins, particularly third-party plugins.

What's not 'plugin' about them?

You can "plug" them in in only one host. Just like Apple/Logic ESX-24 only works in one host.
One is a "proprietary plugin format", the other is "an instrument included in the host". But how much difference is there really?

FaX · Post by **FaX** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:43 pm

whyterabbyt wrote: Other host developers? Is it?

Of course not - they don't do CV / gate patching / audio spider merging / splitting and use a specific device called a Combinator do they.

T-CM11 · Post by **T-CM11** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:44 pm

whyterabbyt wrote:
At least RE is open to other developers...
Other host developers?

Anyone who makes RE's? Does it matter if that anyone also makes a host.

edit: wait, I read you wrong...
I didn't mean it was open to implement in other hosts. I meant it is open to other developers and not only Propellerhead. (so it's not like Fruity Generators or Orion instruments e.g.)

Keith99 · Post by **Keith99** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:45 pm

I think the problem was VST 3, Steinberg messed up the release of that, if it had been welcomed by developers etc. it could have been a new standard

spaceman · Post by **spaceman** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:45 pm

Those companies are probably gambling on differentiating themselves enough through features and functionality and support to pull in people into their ecosystem.

My guess is that many of them have been looking at Apple and Android for the last few years and when it came down to brainstorming new business opportunities they just decided to copy those ecosystems. Steinberg is bit different in that they have always tried to force things their way, with great success I might add with the VST standard (less so with VST3 obviously).

It's probably going to get worse from here for a while. The light at the end of the tunnel will either be improved technology that makes it easier for any developer to port plugins to different standards (which would still need some sort of 'meta' standard) or simply the fact that they tried and it all blew up in their face and they're forced to work on real standards or see their business crippled.

whyterabbyt · Post by **whyterabbyt** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:47 pm

T-CM11 wrote:Anyone who makes RE's?

Im not sure I get your point, then. Could you explain? Do you mean that its a good thing that other developers who can make stuff for non-proprietry formats can now make them for even more proprietry formats too?

Plugin formats? This is the end...