Per note automation like in Bitwig studio also in Reaper?

[pdxindy]

It's my impression that there are different concepts in that realm and it's getting rather confusing:

- You can have simple per note automation using standard CCs. This works with every plugin but isn't polyphonic, one value overwrites the other.
The good thing making it still worthwhile is, that if you move around notes, the automation follows. I think that is what T5 does with VST 2.4 plugins? Have to investigate...
This could be done in any host with any plugin standard.

- There already is one Midi Controller I'm aware of that is polyphonic. Not too many plugins and hosts support it, not many keyboards have it, but Polyphonic Aftertouch is around for a while and could be used instantly by many hosts and plugins without VST 3.5. This would be the ideal candidate IMO for per note expression implementations bridging the gap until VST 3.5 is more common.

- And then there is the VST 3.5 Note Expression. I neither have Cubase nor one of the Steinberg Plugins so I can't try it out, but I guess it could become the new standard in that realm if Steinberg stops alienating developers?

Interesting times

Cheers,

Tom

I expect you are right... Tracktion has monophonic per note automation... so the automation can move with the note but overlapping notes will be affected as well...

There are a number of midi controllers that have Poly AT... (some rather expensive)... On the affordable side there is the Que Nexus

Live wont even record Poly AT if you have a Poly AT controller.

Does Bitwig support Poly AT?

[aMUSEd]

I have a QuNexus but I'm waiting for a firmware update to add tilt to the Poly AT function as I find it's too sensitive to use pressure for this. I'd be surprised Tracktion didn't support poly AT considering they do support the Seaboard instruments.

[ThomasHelzle]

Right now BWS also translates it to Channel AT.

So I just wrote a mail to support to ask for
a:) Supporting Poly AT
b.) Using it as a polyphonic note expression, maybe even allowing for automatic translation into their "timbre" controller, since that would open up not only the internal instruments to actually being playable with polyphonic modulation but also would remove the need for VST 3.5 support mostly...

Fingers crossed...

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

Right now BWS also translates it to Channel AT.

So I just wrote a mail to support to ask for
a:) Supporting Poly AT
b.) Using it as a polyphonic note expression, maybe even allowing for automatic translation into their "timbre" controller, since that would open up not only the internal instruments to actually being playable with polyphonic modulation but also would remove the need for VST 3.5 support mostly...

Fingers crossed...

Cheers,

Tom

Bummer...

Yes, my fingers are crossed too! Poly AT support in Bitwig would pretty much be a sure sale for me as the lack of Poly AT in Live is the one real (as in cannot be worked around relatively easily) disappointment for me with Live.

Your idea would make the note expression much more interesting as well... cause appealing though it is, right now the only way to use it is by editing note by note... I want to be able to play it in realtime!

[ThomasHelzle]

Exactly!

[NothanUmber]

Polyphonic Aftertouch is not enough I guess.
There is a number of instruments/controllers out there now (or on the way) that support at least three continuous degrees of freedom per note (Eigenharp, Seaboard, Soundplane, Linnstrument etc.). Poly AT only works for one dimension.
Unfortunately MIDI isn't really optimal for per-note modulations (it supports up to 16 channels which can be misused for that - but implementing polyphonic per note expressions with them is still quite a hack). iOS developers had already some time to think about that - and even agreed on kind of a MIDI based "standard" - at least for polyphonic pitch bend (two dimensional polyphonic per-finger playing is an obvious usage for a multitouch tablet). Here some quite interesting articles from the developer of the iOS application GeoSynth where he thinks about extending MIDI (the article that finally lead into the iOS "pseudo-standard" for polyphonic pitch bend) - and as that appearently turns out to be hard to get right finally thinking about the most simple protocol that might really work:
http://rrr00bb.blogspot.de/2012/04/idea ... tocol.html
http://rrr00bb.blogspot.de/2012/11/thou ... d-osc.html
https://github.com/rfielding/AlephOne (MIDI based polyphonic pitch bend "reference implementation" used by some iOS developers)

It will really be interesting on what the host developers and plugin makers will settle. There is hope that non-keyboard instruments will finally get some love from the music devs!
I hope for a "sane" MIDI replacement in the long term. This would be better than a plugin standard as it could also be used to control standalone synths, can arbitrarily be routed etc.

[ThomasHelzle]

Yeah, I totally agree NothanUmber.
I just think that short-term Poly AT support would at least open this stuff right away and would work with standard midi and VST 2.x plugins.

A replacement for Midi is long due but so far I can't really see any. OSC seems closest, but is still mostly used in the nerdy corner...

Well, I'm curious what will develop, the time is definitely ripe for it!

Cheers,

Tom

[ThomasHelzle]

I investigated some more:
From the hosts I have available it seems Poly AT is supported by Sonar X3 only.
Studio One is letting it through live, but doesn't record it (huh?).
Wow, that's much worse than I thought.
BWS should really implement this!

Cheers,

Tom

[pdxindy]

I investigated some more:
From the hosts I have available it seems Poly AT is supported by Sonar X3 only.
Studio One is letting it through live, but doesn't record it (huh?).
Wow, that's much worse than I thought.
BWS should really implement this!

Cheers,

Tom

Live also lets it through, but does not record it.

Hard to believe that after many years and with amazingly capable computers, major hosts still don't fully support the midi standard.

[ThomasHelzle]

I investigated some more:
From the hosts I have available it seems Poly AT is supported by Sonar X3 only.
Studio One is letting it through live, but doesn't record it (huh?).
Wow, that's much worse than I thought.
BWS should really implement this!

Cheers,

Tom

Live also lets it through, but does not record it.

Hard to believe that after many years and with amazingly capable computers, major hosts still don't fully support the midi standard.

Is that in Live 9?
In Live 8 I can't play Alchemy with Poly AT, in S1 I can (that is what I meant with "letting it through).

I guess the main problem with it is the editing. Since each note needs it's own controller curves, its getting much more complicated than your average CC.
BWS does it beautifully, so if they connect the dots...

Cheers,

Tom

[memyselfandus]

let us know what they say

[NothanUmber]

The "MDC" (multi dimensional control" MIDI extension done by the Seaboard guys could also be a way out. (It likely pays a price for retaining MIDI compatibility - probably still being note oriented(?) - but wins the price of... MIDI compatibility So a VST2 instrument could implement that without problems. )
With Tracktion there seems to already be one host that supports that.
Couldn't find any protocol specs though - how should the word spread if they don't document it...

[ThomasHelzle]

Hm - in one Seaboard-Video from NAMM a guy said that they basically have an instance of a VST for each Note / use one Midi-Channel per Note. That would be the worst possible implementation while fully Midi compatible LOL
Idiotic really.

Cheers,

Tom

[dsan@mail.com]

That may be fine Thomas for a 8 note song!And if your rig supports it

Although not per note, I do [sometimes] run an instance for an articulation, mainly to be able to properly control certain parameters. It gets tedious at times doing even this.

But an instance per note? Yes - idiotic!

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[BMoore]

What are you actually using/needing per note automation and poly aftertouch for?