Linux...anybody using it?

[jeffh]

but their size and complexity renders them somewhat unstable

...and yet still vastly more stable than Ardour(2 or 3), Qtractor or Muse2 will ever be

I've used both versions of Ardour as well as Qtractor, and I've not encountered crashes or instability at all.

The Google search terms "Ardour2 crash", "Ardour3 crash", "Ardour crash", and to a lesser extent, "Qtractor crash" would tend to disagree with you're assertion that they are stable... The Ardour search results are something like "Ardour crashes on opening", "Ardour crashes on closing", "Ardour crashes on pushing play", "Ardour crashes on pushing stop", "Ardour crashes randomly", "Ardour crashes on pushing the 'donate' button"...

As do my experiences with them, Ardour2 was stable enough if you were JUST recording audio, but not so good if trying to do serious work(nevermind the lack of MIDI). Ardour3 was never stable and still isn't, unless perhaps you're JUST using the Ardour2 features of it. Even the Ardour devs openly admit that MIDI isn't as stable as they would like it to be, but they are going to release it anyways, 3 years late and still broken, Bitwig has nothing on them...

Now, you might try to argue that any DAW would get the same search results... Not true. I have mixed feelings about Reaper, but credit where credit is due; It is pretty stable. Now Google search "reaper crash", and note that 90% of the results have nothing to do with Cockos Reaper, and everything to do with fighter jets, farming equipment and Halloween costumes... Cubase is a different story, but historically Cubase isn't that stable until 1 year after a major release...

I use the Claudia software from KXStudio, and saving and reloading projects are hardly rocket science. And since projects are each given their own folders, this means that all saved data is stored in the project's folder.

Me and the guy behind KX Studio have a very **special** relationship... I think this typical the KX Studio experience:

http://www.linuxmusicians.com/viewtopic ... 47&t=10624

That guy is a seasoned veteran of Linux trying it for the first time, and it's the typical KX Studio "Yeah, after I got done fixing all of the stuff that KX Studio broke, it was pretty sweet!!!"

But then the thread goes into the usual falk explaining "Cl-something, Ka-somethinelse and a few other KX-original apps aren't finished yet, so they SHOULD be crashing or useless or both..."... and then a long discussion about how there's no documentation and how none of the session managers are actually usable... Nobody who isn't a Linux geek should want to go through that much effort to get KX Studio working... I'm a professional Linux geek, and I didn't have the patience for that crap...

EDIT:

But, for those that do put forth the effort to get Linux audio fully working, there is zero advantage musically over Windows, and plenty of disadvantage...

To prove it, here is the comprehensive list of hit songs written in Linux:

/end list

A few of the people I grew up with were Linux geeks(professionally or as a hobby), and have become borderline-famous producers(think: mediocre tracks signed to a decent record label, but still nobody has heard of them kind of famous), and they all use Windows or OSX for producing... Despite their affinity for Linux...

The first step is admitting you have a problem...

[jeffh]

Probably 7 or more folders in windows for Kontakt, and some of them
you must place in /home/use/Documents, the wine makeover of the several
derivatives of 'C:\Documents and Settings/All Users' type of paths available
to the masterful but flailing coders at Native Instruments.

Does Komplete have separate installers for each app? If so, it might
go better than sneakernet. Paths may need to be created to match
installer defaults. Reaper runs fine in my wine, (V 1.2xxx)
and has since I think reaper V2.05. There were a couple
releases in those years of time, that were problematic,
so veteran versions were used 'til a newer version arrived without issues.
Likely a better track record than windows reaper users enjoyed
in the same length of time frame.
Cheers

Eh... I don't think it was a matter of copying folders around, it was (as always), a problem with WINE doing a bad job of reverse engineering the Windows binaries(not their fault though, it is REALLY hard)... It's possible to trace a WINE failure, and it almost always comes down to:

"C:\Windows\System32\whatever.dll:function: foo(bar) not implemented"

, or it is implemented but incorrectly... I was a Windows developer long before I was a Linux developer, I certainly have the context to say that WINE is a poor solution to the Linux (lack of) applications problem...

[glokraw]

Have to call at least local Kontakt BS, as I just sneakernetted Kontakt 3
from it's cobwebbed xp haunts, and it's running fine as I type,
in reaper 4.30 (yes, I haven't updated, just because it works )
loaded with four samples, driven by both a sequencer, and drum machine,
sent to rakarrack fx, with a Podolski synth added, just because it's a
fine sounding instrument.

So I stand by the earlier tips on hardware selection,
and updates. But I'm glad you have great new hardware,
and are putting it to excellent use!

2nd-gen nvidia video card, and maudio pci sound, are quite reaper friendly.
Cheers

[jeffh]

Have to call at least local Kontakt BS, as I just sneakernetted Kontakt 3

Ummm.. but doesn't Komplete 7 (that I have) come with Kontakt 4? After owning Kontakt 1 and 2, I skipped Kontakt 3, so our experiences are not necessarily mutually exclusive... If you say 3 works, I'll take your word on it, but I assure you that 4 didn't work for me, or I would've used it...

in reaper 4.30 (yes, I haven't updated, just because it works

...and that's most of my point, that any random update can and will bork your WINE system, and there's always about zero chance of the vendor fixing it... But let me re-post my earlier link:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=117332

From that thread, I can extrapolate that 98% of Reaperites who tried Reaper on WINE didn't stick with Linux/WINE and went right back to Windows, that must say something about the quality of the experience? Everybody's advice to that kid is "don't waste your time like I did".

I'm as pro-Linux and anti-Windows as they come, but let's be honest, WINE isn't there yet for audio apps, and it probably never will be...

[reteo]

Now, you might try to argue that any DAW would get the same search results... Not true. I have mixed feelings about Reaper, but credit where credit is due; It is pretty stable. Now Google search "reaper crash", and note that 90% of the results have nothing to do with Cockos Reaper, and everything to do with fighter jets, farming equipment and Halloween costumes... Cubase is a different story, but historically Cubase isn't that stable until 1 year after a major release...

This argument is uninformed at best, disingenuous at worst. The reason you don't see as many search results for "reaper crash" is because the word is commonly associated with vehicles, both of the farming and drone varieties, and vehicles are also capable of crashing.

If you were to weed out the farm and drone hits using the "-drone" and "-farm" keywords (note the dashes), you will very much get the same story as Ardour and Cubase options, neither of which share their names with objects that are known for crashing. I also found search results for Pro Tools, Adobe audition (adobe is required to filter out references to "crashing an audition"), and so on.

As do my experiences with them, Ardour2 was stable enough if you were JUST recording audio, but not so good if trying to do serious work(nevermind the lack of MIDI). Ardour3 was never stable and still isn't, unless perhaps you're JUST using the Ardour2 features of it. Even the Ardour devs openly admit that MIDI isn't as stable as they would like it to be, but they are going to release it anyways, 3 years late and still broken, Bitwig has nothing on them...

Once again, the point of Jack is that you can use different programs based on their strengths. In those rare times where I do play with MIDI, I don't use Ardour as the sequencer; I use Rosegarden, LMMS, or Seq24 (if I want to do live loops) for MIDI sequencing, Hydrogen as the drum machine, and Jack to simply pipe their audio output (along with any extra external synths or samplers) into one or more tracks in Ardour. Since each track in Ardour has its own inputs, that allows to keep the signals split for further audio processing.

I won't bother with Bitwig at this time, because it's not out yet, and I'm po'. I've also heard good things about OpenOctave, but I haven't tried it yet, so I'll reserve judgment at this time.

But, for those that do put forth the effort to get Linux audio fully working, there is zero advantage musically over Windows, and plenty of disadvantage...

To prove it, here is the comprehensive list of hit songs written in Linux:

/end list

Whether a song is a hit or not depends on the theory (or, at least, the formula) used in writing it, not the tools it was written on. The Beatles sure as hell didn't use Windows or Mac to make their music, and their music has influenced just about every artist since.

[pljones]

Once again, I'd like to point out that you're right. Linux isn't the easy solution. It's absolutely not simple to use. In order to really make use of Linux for audio, you need to get the hang of audio routing, and understand how different processing affects a sound wave. But simplicity is not the reason to use Linux for audio.

The base flexibility of the Jack platform, along with the modular nature of its tools, make Linux the toolkit for advanced use-cases, allowing for things that cannot be done elsewhere without considerable expense. It's meant for heavy manipulation of sound in ways that plugin writers might not have considered. It's a hell of a lot easier than actually WRITING a plugin, that's for sure.

And once again I'll point out there's absolutely no need for Linux in a JACK-based solution to a problem. If you just need JACK to fix some problem in your workflow, just add JACK. It runs happily on Windows and OSX and brings almost all its advantages. Without bringing in the disadvantages of a Linux audio solution. So you really can't use it as a justification on its own for saying Linux makes a problem easier to solve.

[ret]

I used to use the ancient kontakt 2 version that came with Garritan Orchestra with wine. It worked ok but the newer Garritan Aria player is much better.

I've used both versions of Ardour as well as Qtractor, and I've not encountered crashes or instability at all.

Wish I could say the same. I can think of so many ways to crash Ardour 3 it's not even funny and that software is supposed to be the flagship of linux audio. Ardour 3 is great for recording audio but sadly *any* freeware win or mac software has more advanced & better workflow for midi features. Somehow it seems that the whole linux audio scene is totally paralyzed to praise and eternally wait for Ardour 3 and almost no-one dares to question it.

Ardour and Jack are very much tied together and while Jack was a promising idea in 2002, it is now something we drag along because we don't know a world without it and as said almost no-one dares to question it.

There is nothing wrong to do music "the Jack way" but for a majority of people who just want to open their DAW and make some music, Jack is a real pain in the ass.

[glokraw]

Ardour 3 is in beta, probably feature freeze, after a major overhaul.
Calling the beta of an unreleased new version 'the flagship' ?

You can only run so far with balls labelled,
'didn't work for me', 'too hard for average users',
or 'not worth the effort', before people wonder if
you really have balls at all.

'All Indians walk in single file...

...at least the one I saw did'

[glokraw]

Jack is a real pain in the ass.

I rack my brains every day...
Does the input connect to the output,
or does the output connect to the input
rocket science

[ret]

Ardour 3 is in beta, probably feature freeze, after a major overhaul.
Calling the beta of an unreleased new version 'the flagship' ?

Ardour has been in feature freeze since May 2012 and afaik the latest version you can either build by yourself or get f.ex from kxstudio repos is very damn close to the one that is going to be officially released as Ardour 3.

Exactly what miracles are you expecting to be there or fixed before it gets released? Also it is damn clear Ardour 3 is the flagship of linux audio. If you try to deny it then you can probably tell us what is other software that you think is the one?

I rack my brains every day...
Does the input connect to the output,
or does the output connect to the input Confused
Mad rocket Mad science Mad

Rolling Eyes

Ok. So it works for you, nothing wrong with that. I rather spend my time with music rather than rewiring virtual cables saving/opening my songs countless times on half billion places.

Do a project with several multitimbral instances of Addictive Drums, Garritan Orchestra and perhaps some synths and welcome to the Jack hell (or, obviously Your heaven).

With that "other side" you seem to hate with such a passion all it takes is click save and open that same project. Simple, working and very much 2013. Ask any windows or mac users would they rather user this menthod or the one you end up with Jack and don't be surprised if no-one of them wants to use Jack.

No wonder most people, if I remember correctly even You actually use Reaper with wine. Much easier working that way, isnt it?

[jeffh]

disingenous

Would it not be disingenous to pretend that there is nothing wrong with the Linux audio experience when the evidence suggests that over 99% of people who try it go back to Windows? Especially considering that almost all Linux software is free, and Windows software costs hundreds or thousands of dollars...

Once again, the point of Jack is that you can use different programs based on their strengths.

, but still, by the admission of nearly all Linux audio folks, session management is still very much half-baked and broken... Please don't make me post hundreds of links of top LAD's saying so...

I've also heard good things about OpenOctave, but I haven't tried it yet

OpenOctave was a fork of Muse2 by some radical Christian nut-jobs who claimed that god told them to do it, then they had a big donation campaign, and immediately abandoned development of OpenOctave once the donation campaign ended

In other words, don't waste your time with OpenOctave, it's an even crashier Muse2 with a nicer color theme...

Whether a song is a hit or not depends on the theory (or, at least, the formula) used in writing it, not the tools it was written on. The Beatles sure as hell didn't use Windows or Mac to make their music, and their music has influenced just about every artist since.

But if Ardour + Jack were just as good or better than any Windows DAW, wouldn't somebody have picked up this "advantage" and ran with it all the way to the top of the charts? The top people of any profession are always looking for an edge on the competition, and Linux is not that edge...

[jeffh]

@ret: You really embody what the average musician thinks of Linux audio, whether the current crop of Linux audio developers and musicians want to admit it or not. They can continue pretending that nothing is wrong, and cling to the 0.0000000001% of the market that they have now and make excuses for why they don't have more users...

I can already hear them crying "foul play" whenever my "substantially more like Windows" ecosystem surpasses their meager market share, because they would never believe that it was because it's just a better experience, no matter how many people tell them so

[ret]

In a moment of clarity I decided to delete this post because it added nothing worthwhile to the topic.

[ret]

@ret: You really embody what the average musician thinks of Linux audio, whether the current crop of Linux audio developers and musicians want to admit it or not. They can continue pretending that nothing is wrong, and cling to the 0.0000000001% of the market that they have now and make excuses for why they don't have more users...

I can already hear them crying "foul play" whenever my "substantially more like Windows" ecosystem surpasses their meager market share, because they would never believe that it was because it's just a better experience, no matter how many people tell them so

It was 0.0000000001% when I was last time this heavily involved with this same discussion and it will be the same 0.0000000001% next time in 2018. How do I know?

Well. It is very simple:

Every single one of those people I had this same conversation about five years ago have said goodbye for linux audio and are now using either mac or windows. Many of them were on the developer side of the table and just kept telling how brilliant Jack and linux are for musicians. Needless to mention they didn't listen to us users and those projects are now dead and gone.

So when I read all this it seems that here we are five years later and same nonsense goes on. Only the preaching people have changed.

[liquidsound]

This may give Linux a boost
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevange ... s-in-2013/