do you think cubase is falling behind?

[SJ_Digriz]

As to the docking paradigm, it's usually a very strange conversation to read because (generally speaking) people who choose to support the Cubase "windows all over the place" methodology as being better often at the same time seem to make the implication that applications that use docking actually can't also float their windows, as if the two things are mutally exclusive. They aren't. If you want windows floating all over creation in Reaper or whatever, just float them.

It's not that we/I don't understand that docking can support both. It is that docking is useless for the vast majority of windows. Where it makes sense to dock, they are already docked in the editors(inspector). A docked MIDI editor is basically inline MIDI editing = useless. The angst over how the various windows behave while docked over on the Reaper forums pretty much defines why it isn't the solution. Well designed editors are the solution. If they behaved properly you wouldn't hate them so much. Also, notice I said "docked where it makes sense .. things like the floating VST(i) windows all over the place is a disaster. It is not necessary and the editors already have a facility to make it work.

As to bouncing, Cubase's bouncing and freezing is near ancient in that you can't bounce instruments directly nor can you render mono and stereo stems at the same time, nor can you really freeze anything (without having to unfreeze) unless your linear arragnement is set in stone and afaik, you can't freeze multiple tracks at once.

I'm one of those that think all the push for freeze ruined any chance of us getting reasonable/functional bounce. Freeze really is a grossly insufficient bounce in place. But we got Markitecture solution instead of architecture solution.

As to time stretch, it did sound not as good as others in real time. I recall in the past having to flatten it to get the best sound as the realtim algo was rather not very good sounding. That may have changed in the 6-7 cycle, dunno.

I think people judge stretch by real time and in cubase that isn't good. Using the proper algo actually works on 90% of material for "normal" usages. Obviously there are "creative" scenarios where they may not hold up.

All of that is based on my own uses and perceptions with no bias. Take it as you will.

I take statements claiming "no bias" to be delusional

[ObsoleteAcc99]

by the way FWIW i love cubase, have used it exclusively for a period of three years, cubase sx3 and version 4, when i was trying to avoid going to logic on apple after they stopped my beloved windows version ( i used it to the end of 2004 where it was just getting too unstable, then cubase onwards through June 2008!)

i have never been nor will ever be, an anti cubase guy.. it's midi is *unbelievable*. and audio editing in general, with xfades, and offline processing, and multiple volume gains, etc, is just flawless

[LawrenceF]

I take statements claiming "no bias" to be delusional

Which seems to directly contradict your earlier comment about you wanting a rational discussion based on factual matters and not emotion. I give you exactly that and you call it delusional. Thanks.

Why - for what reason - would I literally spend thousands of dollars on Cubase over 15+ years, use it to make a relative nice amount of money, and then suddenly start bashing it in a biased way? What exactly would I have to gain from that?

I loved it. I wanted it to change in some ways. I waited a very long time for that... it didn't change to my preferences so I started using something else.

If you think my personal impressions after 15 years of use are "delusional" because I said that the comments I made eariler have no bias ... well... that says more about you than me I think.

A docked MIDI editor is basically inline MIDI editing = useless.

And again, you say you want a mature discussion but you continue to superimpose your personal beleifs and preference on the world at large. It's actually not useless to me... because well... I am not you.

[SJ_Digriz]

I take statements claiming "no bias" to be delusional

Which seems to directly contradict your earlier comment about you wanting a rational discussion based on factual matters and not emotion. I give you exactly that and you call it delusional. Thanks.

Smiley face at end ... Smiley face at end ...

[SJ_Digriz]

And again, you say you want a mature discussion but you continue to superimpose your personal beleifs and preference on the world at large. It's actually not useless to me... because well... I am not you.

I already pointed out that these were my opinion with my bias..

But again, read the entire paragraph. I probably worded it poorly, but I'm saying that the editors already have docking. Those side panels that you can open and close are carefully designed docks. Sure they aren't 100% moveable/sizeable, but they are well designed for the most part. They also fit the editor they support.

To MEEEEEEEEE that is the right way to do docks. When I open an editor I can choose which supporting docks I want open. And the docks that are available are in the context of the type of editing I am going to do. From an engineering standpoint (my bias), that is perfect. I'm not saying they can't be improved, I'm saying that docking the actual editors isn't going to solve/provide much IN MY OPINION ...

[LawrenceF]

by the way FWIW i love cubase, have used it exclusively for a period of three years, cubase sx3 and version 4,

You have very good reason to love it imo. Cubase is a really great DAW. I made a ton of money with it. Especially during the period here before all the local rappers started building their own studios. I was booked solid and Cubase was the workhorse and it ran very, very well for me.

Great product... just don't point out it's various subjective flaws in public as it seems to really, really annoy people.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

nah, not really, that annoys only reaper and reason people

Cubase IS very stable.. alot of people say it's not, but IMO it really doesn't crash, maybe it's buggy, but it's stable. Owned 6 briefly, never crashed once either. Can't say the same for logic, although logic ONLY crashes with certain au's.

[LawrenceF]

But again, read the entire paragraph. I probably worded it poorly, but I'm saying that the editors already have docking.

No sir, they actually don't. The audio editor, the midi editor, the drum editor, the score editor, the logical editor ... those are all "editors", and none of them dock afaik ... which is the reason it exists as a long time FR, because many people want them to optionally dock.

Anyway, it's not a big deal. I just gave what I thought were reasonable (and factual) impressions of all that. I didn't intend to start a debate about it all. Those things are on the Cubase FR list I assume becasue many people actually do want them.

Thanks SJ. Have a wonderful day my friend.

[SJ_Digriz]

Great product... just don't point out it's various subjective flaws in public as it seems to really, really annoy people.

I hope you don't think I'm annoyed that you point out flaws. I am not. Disagreeing on what a flaw is isn't the same as being annoyed. I was annoyed with the generic unsupportable straw man statements. Annoyed isn't even the right word. It's more funny than annoying.

LawrenceF I'm pretty sure I find your posts thoughtful for the most part.

EDIT: I'm not saying you were making those types of statements. Just that the concept of this thread was based on that premise.

[SJ_Digriz]

No sir, they actually don't. The audio editor, the midi editor, the drum editor, the score editor, the logical editor ... those are all "editors", and none of them dock afaik ... which is the reason it exists as a long time FR, because many people want them to optionally dock.

I support your right to want those things!
Cheers

[LawrenceF]

I was annoyed with the generic unsupportable straw man statements.

Ah, my apologies for not being fully clear on that. That actually was a bit of a straw man since I didn't clarify it or put it in proper context.

The comments about the "illogical discussions" regarding docking werent actually directed at you or anything you said here. They were based on multiple attempts to discuss all that over 5-6-7 years on the Cubase forum (and other places), where people made those arguments, that they like floating windows better, so Steiny should just leave it be, and I would just say...

"Erhm... then float them instead of dock them?"

That simple thing never really seemed to sink in for some, they'd often falsely imply that docked windows were locked down or something. You'd see that happen repeatedly in those discussions... so I just gave up trying to make sense of it all... the general idea that if a particualr window doesn't work well for you docked... erhm... just don't dock it?

So my error there for not fully qualifying that comment here.

Thanks SJ.

[jancivil]

I can't remember where I stopped and sold my license (for a pittance mind you compared to what I spent) but 5.01 rings a very unwelcome bell. It's been some years a Jan......it's hard to believe time flies like that!

it's going on four years since I got my new system and had to have a Cubase that worked with Intel and a .01 Cubase. it's awful, time when you get old, seems to vanish in a haze.


everyone has different things that bug them. If I had to plug instruments into Cubase using one monitor it would be really tedious. actually I need to interact with Reaktor Skanner GUI so I use that inside Cubase, annoying. but I don't notice the windows management except I never quite got how 'workspaces' actually worked, it seemed to fail for me, fortunately I don't have much need. I live in the key editor and have it placed so the corners expose the project window; other than that I call up things from key commands. My general take is that any host is a PITA until you have key commands you can remember. I enjoy making music with it so much I don't let a lot bother me. I need to make the timeline conform to my idea of the time and this is what does that, so I'm not going to be fickle about a host.

Also VE Pro likes Cubase the best and it is so seriously superior to hosting in the DAW it's insane. People around here don't get this, a lot of this 'stability' and CPU worries are vanished by hosting in VE Pro, the waiting in line for cycles, the management of cores, everything is way more efficient taking it out of the hands of a Cubase. Cue REAPER RULES OK! reaction here.

[hibidy]

Well, if I ever get cubase and have a dongle to host vienna, I'll give it a try.

(actually, S1 seems to have taken over the "rules" category of late

[bludreamsounds]

Cubase is a VERY capable daw. It's just had organizational issues AFAIC. With DAWs it's part evolution, part popularity contest and Steinberg, although innovators, typically don't win outstanding achievement awards in the listening to customer requests category.

It seems as though they spread themselves too thin and let certain things go by the wayside ( Halion 4.5 expansions ) or miss the mark completely when people constantly request workflow improvements ( C7 window management )

But they tend to overdo the "New Shiny Innovation" card and that shits not paying off in the long run.

Fundamentals first, exactly why I went from cubase 5 full to Studio One v2 producer and never looked back.

On another note, I wish they would have Yamaha drop the "More Motif in Halion" bomb and just massively shit on kontakt.

We need real choices.

[BERFAB]

I love Cubase and have used it since SX2. I faithfully upgrade, and every time I do, I am consistently amazed by the number of added features. It is easily the best gear money I spend all year.

At this point (Cubase 7), I probably really only use about 40% of its features. My primary objective is to write and record music, which it does very well. However, on those occasions when I just sit down and explore it, I'm constantly finding little gems and surprises.