The All In One Source Bitwig Information & Speculation Thread

[KoolFartWind]

And besides, there was a huge buildup of over 2 years as to how this was to be be so much better than Live...

I still call Bitwig vapourware....

I don't.

Vaporware is a term in the computer industry that describes a product, typically computer hardware or software, that is announced to the general public but is never actually released nor officially cancelled.

I call it rewirewhere

I call it Ickwürdsochkoofenwennickhackedichtwär

[humanbeingbeing]

Really? Well anyways, I use live everyday, in a variety of ways, 8 going 9 for about 18 months and it is floating my boat. I don't expect everyone to know my history, but I think that for the majority of people who have heard my rants over the years this is a significant statement.

Fanboi? You betcha. I get high just using live. I'm feeling rather blessed that I have this option. Bitwig? MEH, if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger )

I'm not routing for them one bit, though I certainly have no problem if they nail it. Live, it's still by far my Riker, and I'm thankful that I have it.

Well not to come off as more of less significant than you are (because I'm really not), but I actually started using Live about 12 years ago, using it daily, not months ago. Years ago. and I've released scores of actual productions... I've been following forums like this long before Ableton even existed.

Here are my opinions on your posts. Unnecessary at best. Unhelpful, maybe more useful on the Ableton board with the rest of the 'Fanboi''s (your word not mine). I think the gist of the data in your post is that you are happy with Live and for some inexplicable reason you are not 'routing' for Bitwig. Not to be a dick with words but in the spirit of the comeback Routing: Like Rt 66 Root: like cheering for someone.

Plus you threw in some thanks for Ableton and such. All good, but besides the point which is the debate... and bugs and discussion, etc -on this particular board no less, not the Ableton one.... how about you tell us what you don't like, maybe what you do like? :::::: "REALLY PAY ATTENTION" and deliver on that statement "they are WAY behind" --how so? I'd love to know. Honestly though, your timeframe is so small that you couldn't possibly appreciate the problems I've discussed... all you can do is take apps face to face, and not consider the HISTORY of the whole saga.

[trimph1]

Considering that Bitwig was bantered abouts here for 2+ years before something even showed up, allegedly calling itself Bitwig I think there were/are a lot of frustrated users out here.

Just check the Bitwig forum here...a lot of happy users right?

Since some have trouble with vapourware let us just call it.....a changling....

[llze]

[The Mantra]

if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger

I have to disagree with this. I have been paying close attention to BW especially lately and I don't see them as being far behind.

BW has been squashing bugs at a rapid pace, There are some QOL features that are being requested, many of which have been confirmed to be planed to be released before BW2.0 and then there are many "feature request" that have solutions implicit in the modular system.

Its not unreasonable to think that BW 2.0 will be a serious competitor.
Live 9 took 4 years to release and audio to midi and dual monitor support (the latter of which didnt come until a year after the initial release) were the only things that significantly altered or sped up work flow. If I only had one screen, and owned melodyne, and didn't own push, I could have stayed with live 8.
When Logic had to wait that long for an update, at least they got a complete revamp.

Live has spent the last 4-5 years without much innovation in the core sequencer and they are way behind where they should be.
This is a close race.

I think an objective analysis between the two apps suggest that things could go either way depending on what live 10 and BW 2 are.

I'm also pretty confident in saying that Live cant afford to release another "live9" level update.

For reference, I am a long time live user and have not purchased BW (yet).

[UncleAge]

I'm also pretty confident in saying that Live cant afford to release another "live9" level update.

I disagree. I think you're giving the average Live user too much credit.

[pdxindy]

Really? Well anyways, I use live everyday, in a variety of ways, 8 going 9 for about 18 months and it is floating my boat. I don't expect everyone to know my history, but I think that for the majority of people who have heard my rants over the years this is a significant statement.

Fanboi? You betcha. I get high just using live. I'm feeling rather blessed that I have this option. Bitwig? MEH, if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger )

I'm not routing for them one bit, though I certainly have no problem if they nail it. Live, it's still by far my Riker, and I'm thankful that I have it.

Then why do you spend so much time in this thread?

because of the cats!

[pdxindy]

if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger

I have to disagree with this. I have been paying close attention to BW especially lately and I don't see them as being far behind.

BW has been squashing bugs at a rapid pace, There are some QOL features that are being requested, many of which have been confirmed to be planed to be released before BW2.0 and then there are many "feature request" that have solutions implicit in the modular system.

Its not unreasonable to think that BW 2.0 will be a serious competitor.
Live 9 took 4 years to release and audio to midi and dual monitor support (the latter of which didnt come until a year after the initial release) were the only things that significantly altered or sped up work flow. If I only had one screen, and owned melodyne, and didn't own push, I could have stayed with live 8.
When Logic had to wait that long for an update, at least they got a complete revamp.

Live has spent the last 4-5 years without much innovation in the core sequencer and they are way behind where they should be.
This is a close race.

I think an objective analysis between the two apps suggest that things could go either way depending on what live 10 and BW 2 are.

I'm also pretty confident in saying that Live cant afford to release another "live9" level update.

For reference, I am a long time live user and have not purchased BW (yet).

I understand the calculation... you are projecting that Bitwig will move forward much faster than Live. But regardless of future calculations, at this moment, Bitwig is far behind Live. There are many core/basic functions in Bitwig that are not working correctly or have frustrating limitations.

You cannot just save some audio as audio by dragging a clip to the browser.
When you drag an audio clip to the browser, it saves it as a proprietary Bitwig clip format which contains the audio. Close Bitwig and re-open and drag that clip to a track, audio is missing.
If you have an LFO with a nested VST (basically a VST preset with an LFO for some modulation) you cannot choose where that preset is saved. It is saved as an LFO preset. You cannot organize your own presets how you wish and they don't save in sensible places.
No midi export (import is only partially working)
Bitwig does not record sustain pedal.
Forget recording clips in the clip launcher cause there is no count-in

Every area I explore, there are multiple obvious bugs. In a launcher clip, use the scale x2 command and the notes scale but the clip/loop length does not change.

The list goes on for a while... Bitwig is a rough beta and it is going to take them a good while to sort it out.

[Biscotto]

if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger

I have to disagree with this. I have been paying close attention to BW especially lately and I don't see them as being far behind.

BW has been squashing bugs at a rapid pace, There are some QOL features that are being requested, many of which have been confirmed to be planed to be released before BW2.0 and then there are many "feature request" that have solutions implicit in the modular system.

Its not unreasonable to think that BW 2.0 will be a serious competitor.
Live 9 took 4 years to release and audio to midi and dual monitor support (the latter of which didnt come until a year after the initial release) were the only things that significantly altered or sped up work flow. If I only had one screen, and owned melodyne, and didn't own push, I could have stayed with live 8.
When Logic had to wait that long for an update, at least they got a complete revamp.

Live has spent the last 4-5 years without much innovation in the core sequencer and they are way behind where they should be.
This is a close race.

I think an objective analysis between the two apps suggest that things could go either way depending on what live 10 and BW 2 are.

I'm also pretty confident in saying that Live cant afford to release another "live9" level update.

For reference, I am a long time live user and have not purchased BW (yet).

I understand the calculation... you are projecting that Bitwig will move forward much faster than Live. But regardless of future calculations, at this moment, Bitwig is far behind Live. There are many core/basic functions in Bitwig that are not working correctly or have frustrating limitations.

You cannot just save some audio as audio by dragging a clip to the browser.
When you drag an audio clip to the browser, it saves it as a proprietary Bitwig clip format which contains the audio. Close Bitwig and re-open and drag that clip to a track, audio is missing.
If you have an LFO with a nested VST (basically a VST preset with an LFO for some modulation) you cannot choose where that preset is saved. It is saved as an LFO preset. You cannot organize your own presets how you wish and they don't save in sensible places.
No midi export (import is only partially working)
Bitwig does not record sustain pedal.
Forget recording clips in the clip launcher cause there is no count-in

Every area I explore, there are multiple obvious bugs. In a launcher clip, use the scale x2 command and the notes scale but the clip/loop length does not change.

The list goes on for a while... Bitwig is a rough beta and it is going to take them a good while to sort it out.

Unfortunately you are right.
I like the basic workflow, but your post is the tip of the iceberg...
How long can anyone sustain a denial state?

[The Mantra]

I understand the calculation... you are projecting that Bitwig will move forward much faster than Live. But regardless of future calculations, at this moment, Bitwig is far behind Live. There are many core/basic functions in Bitwig that are not working correctly or have frustrating limitations.
.

All these things are true. This is why I haven't purchased Bitwig yet. This stuff is also expected from a 1.0 piece of software. 1.0 software with problems with bugs and maturity are to be expected. I see this ALL the time, not only in pro audio but in video games and other forms of new technology.

However, I fallow KVR and I have recently seen Live in a similar situation with a sloppy beta and lots of bugs and users rioting on the forums. Cubase was in a similar situation, who could forget about the "things i hate about Cubase" thread. All these things happened recently, but now that they are largely resolved, it seems like ages ago.

When you look at the pace at which BW has been patching and compare to the above scenarios, they are making good time.

I think it may not that we may not be that we disagree, but that you are looking at the situation statically, and I am looking at it as a dynamic and constantly changing situation.

[pdxindy]

I understand the calculation... you are projecting that Bitwig will move forward much faster than Live. But regardless of future calculations, at this moment, Bitwig is far behind Live. There are many core/basic functions in Bitwig that are not working correctly or have frustrating limitations.
.

All these things are true. This is why I haven't purchased Bitwig yet. This stuff is also expected from a 1.0 piece of software. 1.0 software with problems with bugs and maturity are to be expected. I see this ALL the time, not only in pro audio but in video games and other forms of new technology.

However, I fallow KVR and I have recently seen Live in a similar situation with a sloppy beta and lots of bugs and users rioting on the forums. Cubase was in a similar situation, who could forget about the "things i hate about Cubase" thread. All these things happened recently, but now that they are largely resolved, it seems like ages ago.

When you look at the pace at which BW has been patching and compare to the above scenarios, they are making good time.

I think it may not that we may not be that we disagree, but that you are looking at the situation statically, and I am looking at it as a dynamic and constantly changing situation.

Yeah, I think our assessments are similar. Perhaps if there is a difference is that I think after digging into Bitwig for the past couple weeks, that Bitwig is rougher than it seemed at first and that there is more work to do than I expected.

[humanbeingbeing]

if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger

I have to disagree with this. I have been paying close attention to BW especially lately and I don't see them as being far behind.

BW has been squashing bugs at a rapid pace, There are some QOL features that are being requested, many of which have been confirmed to be planed to be released before BW2.0 and then there are many "feature request" that have solutions implicit in the modular system.

Its not unreasonable to think that BW 2.0 will be a serious competitor.
Live 9 took 4 years to release and audio to midi and dual monitor support (the latter of which didnt come until a year after the initial release) were the only things that significantly altered or sped up work flow. If I only had one screen, and owned melodyne, and didn't own push, I could have stayed with live 8.
When Logic had to wait that long for an update, at least they got a complete revamp.

Live has spent the last 4-5 years without much innovation in the core sequencer and they are way behind where they should be.
This is a close race.

I think an objective analysis between the two apps suggest that things could go either way depending on what live 10 and BW 2 are.

I'm also pretty confident in saying that Live cant afford to release another "live9" level update.

For reference, I am a long time live user and have not purchased BW (yet).

I understand the calculation... you are projecting that Bitwig will move forward much faster than Live. But regardless of future calculations, at this moment, Bitwig is far behind Live. There are many core/basic functions in Bitwig that are not working correctly or have frustrating limitations.

You cannot just save some audio as audio by dragging a clip to the browser.
When you drag an audio clip to the browser, it saves it as a proprietary Bitwig clip format which contains the audio. Close Bitwig and re-open and drag that clip to a track, audio is missing.
If you have an LFO with a nested VST (basically a VST preset with an LFO for some modulation) you cannot choose where that preset is saved. It is saved as an LFO preset. You cannot organize your own presets how you wish and they don't save in sensible places.
No midi export (import is only partially working)
Bitwig does not record sustain pedal.
Forget recording clips in the clip launcher cause there is no count-in

Every area I explore, there are multiple obvious bugs. In a launcher clip, use the scale x2 command and the notes scale but the clip/loop length does not change.

The list goes on for a while... Bitwig is a rough beta and it is going to take them a good while to sort it out.

I don't like this 'way behind' comment... although bitwig is buggy, as others have stated (and completely normal at this stage).... you can expect those to be fixed.... but you've written a bunch of features here that are not even offered by most programs..and Bitwig is the first legitimate contender to Ableton in years.... if this is what you 'define' as 'way behind'... I guess our calibrations are wrong... its funny you mention the 'core' features missing from Bitwig... that PDC core feature is a pretty big one and it's missing in Ableton for years. Not to mention that in 9 updates, there has been no practical core innovation since version 4... Ableton are ahead simply because they had no one chasing after them.

[hibidy]

You guys are hilarious. I didn't mean to stir the nest of ants necessarily, sorry about that.

[llze]

[hibidy]

Really? Well anyways, I use live everyday, in a variety of ways, 8 going 9 for about 18 months and it is floating my boat. I don't expect everyone to know my history, but I think that for the majority of people who have heard my rants over the years this is a significant statement.

Fanboi? You betcha. I get high just using live. I'm feeling rather blessed that I have this option. Bitwig? MEH, if you really pay attention, they are WAY behind and people that waited with baited breath are saying it's behind (no reason to shoot the messenger )

I'm not routing for them one bit, though I certainly have no problem if they nail it. Live, it's still by far my Riker, and I'm thankful that I have it.

Well not to come off as more of less significant than you are (because I'm really not), but I actually started using Live about 12 years ago, using it daily, not months ago. Years ago. and I've released scores of actual productions... I've been following forums like this long before Ableton even existed.

Here are my opinions on your posts. Unnecessary at best. Unhelpful, maybe more useful on the Ableton board with the rest of the 'Fanboi''s (your word not mine). I think the gist of the data in your post is that you are happy with Live and for some inexplicable reason you are not 'routing' for Bitwig. Not to be a dick with words but in the spirit of the comeback Routing: Like Rt 66 Root: like cheering for someone.

Plus you threw in some thanks for Ableton and such. All good, but besides the point which is the debate... and bugs and discussion, etc -on this particular board no less, not the Ableton one.... how about you tell us what you don't like, maybe what you do like? :::::: "REALLY PAY ATTENTION" and deliver on that statement "they are WAY behind" --how so? I'd love to know. Honestly though, your timeframe is so small that you couldn't possibly appreciate the problems I've discussed... all you can do is take apps face to face, and not consider the HISTORY of the whole saga.

I have to address this specifically. I'm not here to win a popularity contest for you. I made a response to you post and now you have set off on some crusade. I don't agree with your comments nor do I think they are particularly useful as well. I called myself a fanboi of live and you twisted it into something else. Well, that is the kvr way