Cakewalk Sonar X3

[JoseC.]

It's quite funny that I have to select "other" as my location instead of Europe to get a much better price (same value in dollars instead of €) in the Cakewalk shop.

It's worse than that - it's not even just a Cakewalk thing.

This type of thing has been going on for years with artifically-restricted markets. Heck, region codes were invented on DVD so they can milk the public.

The thing to watch out for is the Transpacific Trade Agreement - recently leaked. As usual, the US is being an ogre, as it does with most trade agreement.

It's so damn bad, the US wants to eliminate the common notion of 'First Sale' which means once an item is sold, you own it and can then resell it to anyone. TPTA would allow companies to modify a sale and just about criminalize 'First Sale' doctrine, so companies can extract even more money.

It's sorta like having a bad dream about a dystopic, corporate-controlled world, after watching Blade Runner...

http://wikileaks.org/tpp/#start

Blade runner is my favorite movie but, really, this is not about a global conspiracy, it is just about sales taxes.

[chk071]

Yep...

[Jace-BeOS]

Oh, please. By your view, the user bears no responsibility.

Some, but not all that's laid on them, surely.

Anyone who's used complex software on a PC knows there are thousands of possible ways a PC can be put together, hence, thousands of ways it can conflict with any software.

Add to that: other software running on the same system and you have countless possible recipes for problems to occur. It's not just possible, it's inevitable.

Thank you for making the case that computers are unreliable and shouldn't be expected to do the things people expect them to do. Why are you okay with this fundamentally broken engineering? This is a fundamentally broken world view, IMO, yet it is the default one and the majority in the user base (of indoctrinated users; the clueless users tend to blame it all on their ignorance, which may or may not be related at all).

The X3 demo hasn't even been released yet. More to the point -- having read your novelistic rants in this thread, it's obvious you don't even own X3.

Correct, i do not own it.

Your problem is with X2. Or X1. Or Cakewalk. Or all of the above.

My problem is Cakewalk and the long history of Sonar versions i bought, stopping at 8.5.

So, in that context, why don't you stop trying to make every point in this thread about "Blaming the user"?

Because no one is... (If you were actually talking about X3).

People are blaming users by declaring how stupid they are for upgrading before patch versions are released, having various hardware, etc. Maybe you're not seeing it, but that's how i see it.

[Jace-BeOS]

In all fairness, EVERYONE who bought X3 did so without a demo. How would they know in advance whether or not it would work for them? Have these hundreds, if not thousands of people all done something wrong? There's an expectation that large software products will work reasonably well, though not without some minor bugs. Based on that, I can't fault anyone for upgrading without a demo.

Well said!

[Jace-BeOS]

It's quite funny that I have to select "other" as my location instead of Europe to get a much better price (same value in dollars instead of €) in the Cakewalk shop.

It's worse than that - it's not even just a Cakewalk thing.

This type of thing has been going on for years with artifically-restricted markets. Heck, region codes were invented on DVD so they can milk the public.

The thing to watch out for is the Transpacific Trade Agreement - recently leaked. As usual, the US is being an ogre, as it does with most trade agreement.

It's so damn bad, the US wants to eliminate the common notion of 'First Sale' which means once an item is sold, you own it and can then resell it to anyone. TPTA would allow companies to modify a sale and just about criminalize 'First Sale' doctrine, so companies can extract even more money.

It's sorta like having a bad dream about a dystopic, corporate-controlled world, after watching Blade Runner...

http://wikileaks.org/tpp/#start

Well, this would go in the "What has pissed you off today" thread if i were still participating there.

[audiobot202]

I like Sonar. I like the X series, even. I have X1, X2 and X3 and think the progression is great. But, as much as I'd love to use Sonar X3, it crashes without warning on my system. Sometimes I can repeat it and sometimes I can't. But when it does crash, it brings down the whole system hard and makes it unstable to the point that I need to reboot. Same thing happened with X1 and X2.
It's a pity because I really love some of the workflow in Sonar. The MIDI editor itself has a lovely feel. The Smart Tools work well and the Pro Channel is nifty.
It's just a pity it's so crash prone.

[flugel45]

audiobot202, have you posted your problem at the Sonar X3 forum? The vast majority of X3 users are not experiencing these random crashes...

[jens]

[ it is just about sales taxes.

No, it is not.

I live in Switzerland which is not part of the EU. "Europe" does not equal EU.
"Europe" has no meaning in that regard. When it coems to calculating taxes it is 100% nonsensical to ask whether the customer lives in "Europe". It is just dumb and shows how utterly and pathetically and ridiculously clueless those who attempt to run an international business are. That was my point.

[pc999]

Blade runner is my favorite movie but, really, this is not about a global conspiracy, it is just about sales taxes.

Of curse it is not, and none is reading your emails... starting wars for fuel or bringing millions to misery so a few can get even richer...

They are just making things better for everyone (of them).

[audiobot202]

audiobot202, have you posted your problem at the Sonar X3 forum? The vast majority of X3 users are not experiencing these random crashes...

I've been following that forum since X1 and have tried every X version on two different machines over time. These crashes have been the same for me ever since X1. I've posted there, and tried different things, but so far no joy.
It works for some but not for others. Same as any host.

[JoseC.]

[ it is just about sales taxes.

No, it is not.

I live in Switzerland which is not part of the EU. "Europe" does not equal EU.
"Europe" has no meaning in that regard. When it coems to calculating taxes it is 100% nonsensical to ask whether the customer lives in "Europe". It is just dumb and shows how utterly and pathetically and ridiculously clueless those who attempt to run an international business are. That was my point.

No sales taxes in Switzerland? Is Switzerland not in Europe? I did not mention the EU, did I? I cannot imagine the Swiss not collecting taxes where due.

[JoseC.]

Blade runner is my favorite movie but, really, this is not about a global conspiracy, it is just about sales taxes.

Of curse it is not, and none is reading your emails... starting wars for fuel or bringing millions to misery so a few can get even richer...

They are just making things better for everyone (of them).

Have you heard about chemtrails? If not, check that out, you'll be SCARED of what they are REALLY capable of. And don't forget that a Sonar is a military device, they don't even bother to conceal things much...

[LawrenceF]

In all fairness, EVERYONE who bought X3 did so without a demo. How would they know in advance whether or not it would work for them? Have these hundreds, if not thousands of people all done something wrong? There's an expectation that large software products will work reasonably well, though not without some minor bugs. Based on that, I can't fault anyone for upgrading without a demo.

I have to respectfully disagree. The lions share of the responsibility is on the user. The reason there is no demo right away for Sonar and Cubase is because they know for sure that many people will buy it in the blind without a demo. If people would just stop doing that, they'd feel more pressure to release a demo at the same time as the release version, and if they have to do that, they may also have to pay more attention to quality control of initial major releases.

Sure, they have some responsibility there also, the developers. No argument there. But users have - all - the power because they're spending the money.

It's a regular cycle it seems. Steiny and Cake release a major version, some people just gotta have the new thing right now and pre-order it or buy it as soon as it's available, and then X% of those people moan because it's buggy and "go back to using" the thing they already had while they wait for fixes, while Cake and Steiny earn months of interest on those people's money in their bank accounts.

Both companies usually sort it all out over the next six months or so. But people who've seen it before do it again anyway.

Nobody - has - to buy a brand new thing. We're always currently working without it, with the old thing. They just "really, really want it right now", bad, so they gamble and buy it... instead of just waiting a few months for a demo.

And yes, if you can't test it first on your system with your plugs and your workflow, it is a gamble. It's curious how so many people laugh at the marketing but still fall for it every time anyway, and buy something based - only - on marketing.

[jens]

[ it is just about sales taxes.

No, it is not.

I live in Switzerland which is not part of the EU. "Europe" does not equal EU.
"Europe" has no meaning in that regard. When it coems to calculating taxes it is 100% nonsensical to ask whether the customer lives in "Europe". It is just dumb and shows how utterly and pathetically and ridiculously clueless those who attempt to run an international business are. That was my point.

No sales taxes in Switzerland? Is Switzerland not in Europe? I did not mention the EU, did I? I cannot imagine the Swiss not collecting taxes where due.

What's your effing point? Is it so hard to think before typing?


You wrote that they ask for the region/country because of taxes. And suddenly you say that the country/region doesn't matter at all becauce the countries all collect taxes? There isn't even just a hint of logic or clue in what you write.



And b.t.w., just to inform you about the facts:


No in Switzerland they do not collect VAT for downloadable software which has been purchased abroad. Besides VAT is in most cases 8% and not 19% as in the EU.

And it gets even better: if I buy something in the EU, then import it on my own as a private person into Swtzerland, i can get the VAT back afterwards. and as long as the combined value of all the purchased items one person imports at once stays below 300SFR, you don't have to pay any VAT (or any customs fees) at all. I can do this as many times a day as I want.

I.e.: if I buy Sonar at Thomann, I don't have to pay any taxes. Yet the Cakewalk online-store will collect 19% if I select "Europe" when purchasing. This amount Cakewalk will then hand over to an EU-country of their choice, because I live in "Europe".

It is simply the case, than the Cakewalk sales guys are so ignorant and uninformed that they think Europe=EU.

Imagine they would have the category "North America" instead of "United States" - that would be the exact same thing.
I don't think the Canadians would be too amused about being lumped in with the US-Americans.

[JoseC.]

I.e.: if I buy Sonar at Thomann, I don't have to pay any taxes. Yet the Cakewalk online-store will collect 19% if I select "Europe" when purchasing. This amount Cakewalk will then hand over to an EU-country of their choice, because I live in "Europe".

It is simply the case, than the Cakewalk sales guys are so ignorant and uninformed that they think Europe=EU.

Imagine they would have the category "North America" instead of "United States" - that would be the exact same thing.
I don't think the Canadians would be too amused about being lumped in with the US-Americans.

Ok, now that you have confirmed that you are familiar with the concept of sales taxes and other import duties, and that it is not a global conspiracy but a pretty common issue, you can complain all you want about the way Cakewalk's online store handles things. I might even agree with you on some points along the way. Thing is, I can imagine that it is far easier to lump the sales of a few small odd countries with the main management issue, that is selling to the EU. That you are not very much amused about it I understand, because in your case you actually pay a small overprice compared to the rest of Europe (because you are in Europe, like it or not). Or, if you want, you can look at it the other way and think that we get a "better"(taxes excluded) price because ours is a larger market.

I should also mention that the Cakewalk online shop also sells physical items, and that those items used to ship for the European market from a (I think) Hewlett Packard owned facility in Ireland, so it might be that they already payed import taxes into the EU. I don't know if that is still the case, but, again, I do not think that there is any stupidity there, only management choices that are most surely based on other reasons that global conspiracies, or a dumb ignorance of the fact that the Swiss want to remain different from all the countries around them. That is my only point. Besides, I also would like to pay USA rates.