Studio One 2.6.2 - with new pay add-ons

[aMUSEd]

All a bit underwhelming really - does anyone actually use Ampire? I was hoping for some news of version 3

[lfm]

I don't get this - is it just addons for plugins - what is the purpose of that as proprietary format?
Is it a special format like Sonar ProChannel, to fit in nicely in gui?

Had hoped for something like Cockos SWS extensions or something - to make custom toolbars and other things. That I would have been prepared to pay for.

[LawrenceF]

I don't get this - is it just addons for plugins - what is the purpose of that as proprietary format? Is it a special format like Sonar ProChannel, to fit in nicely in gui?

The purpose of the extension system is for adding optional functionality. The Macro Toolbar, Soundcloud, Nimbit, the Softtube plugin, the Fat Channel audio plugin, etc, etc, etc, all the way through the Soundset Builder, are all extensions. So now (I suppose) it has been updated to also manage "commercial" extensions... which (given the prevalence for sharing) probably require some kind of protection.

Had hoped for something like Cockos SWS extensions or something - to make custom toolbars and other things. That I would have been prepared to pay for.

The only difference between the two systems is that there is no public API for the S1 Extension system, so we cannot build our own extensions.

Otherwise, much the same thing really. I mean, you can't use SWS Extensions in any other host but Reaper like you can't use S1's extensions in Reaper or Cubase.

[Compyfox]

As long as those bugs don't affect Compyfox everything is fine, they are showing Steinberg the middle finger.

Yeah, Steinberg should learn how to sell mp3 encoder licenses to the users of Cubase lower versions:

...

Or new drum samples and patterns for Cubase's own drum sampler:

...

Or additional content for the included plugins:

...

Presonus is definitely showing Steinberg the finger with their new ideas:

...

Absolute trolling fail on your end this time around.


Not only do I not(!) use S1, but Cubase still (which you're actually hooked on about already - which eventually results in the accusation that I "destroy every Steinberg thread"... just wait...), but it's also comparing apples and oranges.


In case of Presonus... they are offering optional "add-on tools" along to their v2.6.x free(!!!) update. Tools that might eventually (read: maybe) see the light of day in S1 v3.

Steinberg on the other hand asks for wild prices every year and forces you to get these tools (even if you will never use them), while ultimately abandonning earlier versions and their customer base.

BIG - DIFFERENCE - !


Also, in case of the MP3pro(!) codec for Steinberg, you pay for the Fraunhofer License, and IIRC (from Wavelab days), that is bound to the Elicenser. Basically it's for rendering only - Cubase/Wavelab can natively load(!) MP3, and also render to MP3/FLAC/OGG/WMA (Wavelab 8 ). So the MP3 Add-On for S1 Artist actually enhances the host capabilities (and then, 10EUR is more than fair).

The Steinberg sound packs you listed are optional. Always will be.

What was bundled with C7.5 (both new plugins and soundware) was not(!) optional. Yet it was advertised as main selling factor, while the real improvements (Instrument Track 2.0, Track Versions, certain essential bug show stoppers, etc) were kind of drowned out.


Summary:
- Presonus is offering a v2.6.x update for free (actually, the update from 2.0 to 2.5 in December 2012 was already free of charge, which also included drastic enhancements - unlike other developers)
- Presonus offers additional tools/content optional and doesn't force you to "get them"
- the add on's are reasonable priced


So yes - Presonus doesn't milk their customers and rather learns from other developer's mistakes. Like it or not.

But trolling and throwing around wild accusations is so much more simpler, isn't it?

[LawrenceF]

Here's what I see as the "potential" value in this method for audio plugins. I say "potential" because I have no clue if they plan to do it or not. Getting discounted 3rd party audio plugins as extensions.

Example: Rather than paying $199 for Fab Filter ProQ, I would buy it as a $50-60 extension that only works in S1, since I only mostly work in S1. That would be fine with me and I wouldn't much care about using that plugin in any other software.

In this hypothetical situation, should I later decide that I want the full VST/AU to use in other software, I would upgrade with the 3rd party company directly, getting some credit towards that purchase for already having paid for the S1 extension.

That's my hope anyway. There would seem to be some real value in that for some higher priced 3rd party plugin vendors, to get some sales from people who otherwise can't really afford their products. It might also be viable to deliver some higher ticket plugs that way that might otherwise be on iLok.

Kinda like the best of both worlds? Like the Reason store but with the option to skip it all and just buy the full plugin 3rd party and use that.

[standalone]

As long as those bugs don't affect Compyfox everything is fine, they are showing Steinberg the middle finger.

Yeah, Steinberg should learn how to sell mp3 encoder licenses to the users of Cubase lower versions:

...

Or new drum samples and patterns for Cubase's own drum sampler:

...

Or additional content for the included plugins:

...

Presonus is definitely showing Steinberg the finger with their new ideas:

...

Absolute trolling fail on your end this time around.


Not only do I not(!) use S1, but Cubase still (which you're actually hooked on about already - which eventually results in the accusation that I "destroy every Steinberg thread"... just wait...), but it's also comparing apples and oranges.


In case of Presonus... they are offering optional "add-on tools" along to their v2.6.x free(!!!) update. Tools that might eventually (read: maybe) see the light of day in S1 v3.

Steinberg on the other hand asks for wild prices every year and forces you to get these tools (even if you will never use them), while ultimately abandonning earlier versions and their customer base.

BIG - DIFFERENCE - !


Also, in case of the MP3pro(!) codec for Steinberg, you pay for the Fraunhofer License, and IIRC (from Wavelab days), that is bound to the Elicenser. Basically it's for rendering only - Cubase/Wavelab can natively load(!) MP3, and also render to MP3/FLAC/OGG/WMA (Wavelab 8 ). So the MP3 Add-On for S1 Artist actually enhances the host capabilities (and then, 10EUR is more than fair).

The Steinberg sound packs you listed are optional. Always will be.

What was bundled with C7.5 (both new plugins and soundware) was not(!) optional. Yet it was advertised as main selling factor, while the real improvements (Instrument Track 2.0, Track Versions, certain essential bug show stoppers, etc) were kind of drowned out.


Summary:
- Presonus is offering a v2.6.x update for free (actually, the update from 2.0 to 2.5 in December 2012 was already free of charge, which also included drastic enhancements - unlike other developers)
- Presonus offers additional tools/content optional and doesn't force you to "get them"
- the add on's are reasonable priced


So yes - Presonus doesn't milk their customers and rather learns from other developer's mistakes. Like it or not.

But trolling and throwing around wild accusations is so much more simpler, isn't it?

Inconsistent and oversized post, as always. What's wrong for Steinberg is right for everyone else. Why? Because blah, blah, blah ........

For your information, my main host is Studio One and I have five stars reputation in the Presonus forum. I also use Cubase 7 from time to time.

[Compyfox]

I don't care if you have a 5-star reputation at the Presonus boards - we're here on KVR. And you obviously tried to troll me to prove a fictious point that I am wrong in any form whatsoever. Not this time around.

Furthermore - your post was just as "oversized" and "inconsitent" towards me - as it didn't offer any common ground towards my comment, only sarcasm and pointing fingers.

Apples and Oranges, standalone. Apples and Oranges.


EDIT:
Also, the quote pyramid was unnecessary.

[LawrenceF]

Not sure what you two guys are arguing about exactly.

The difference there is that (afaik anyway, I might be wrong about that and if I am I'm sure I'll be corrected pretty swiftly), Steinberg doesn't actually sell other companies products. PreSonus seems to be doing that, selling or providing other companies products as extensions.

Not quite the same thing.

What CompyFox is saying is that none of the Cubase functionality (except mp3 of course) can be purchased as an add-on and he - hopes - that will be the case with S1, that (maybe?) if you want say, Open Air or PipeLine or something else that might show up later for Pro in Artist or Producer, you can maybe one day just buy it as an extension for $30, and not have to upgrade to Pro just to get it.

That was my general take on his comments anyway. If (a big if, granted) they eventually do that, they'll essentially be breaking up what are the conventional "tiered" pricing structures, allowing you to only add the stuff from Pro that you actually want, instead of upgrading.

[dsan@mail.com]

Not to hijack, but sort of on topic;

Today I receive a Steinberg email requesting I take their survey. Inside was questions about the prospect of buying "add-ons".

I thought it quite coincidental The day AFTER Presonus makes it happen!

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[fese]

Here's what I see as the "potential" value in this method for audio plugins. I say "potential" because I have no clue if they plan to do it or not. Getting discounted 3rd party audio plugins as extensions.

Example: Rather than paying $199 for Fab Filter ProQ, I would buy it as a $50-60 extension that only works in S1, since I only mostly work in S1. That would be fine with me and I wouldn't much care about using that plugin in any other software.

In this hypothetical situation, should I later decide that I want the full VST/AU to use in other software, I would upgrade with the 3rd party company directly, getting some credit towards that purchase for already having paid for the S1 extension.

That's my hope anyway. There would seem to be some real value in that for some higher priced 3rd party plugin vendors, to get some sales from people who otherwise can't really afford their products. It might also be viable to deliver some higher ticket plugs that way that might otherwise be on iLok.

Kinda like the best of both worlds? Like the Reason store but with the option to skip it all and just buy the full plugin 3rd party and use that.

You can hope but I am pretty sure you won't live to see that. Would be nice, though, but it is not the principle of those stores in general. They just want to sell their stuff and bind the customer to their product line, and this is what I seriously don't like about the store concept.
If presonus (or any vendor that decides to open a dedictated store) just sells additional features to their DAW, I can live with that, but I fear that this will soon be extended to plugins you can only use in that DAW, like with reason. Great for the vendor, not so great for the customer.

[LawrenceF]

@Fese: My comments about commercial third party audio plugin add-ons was more in a limited context, not all of the vendors obviously, but certain ones that may have high value and higher cost otherwise... so, of course not every plugin vendor but some limited partnerships with certain plugin vendors.

FabFilter might be a good partner for that kinda thing. They make some great plugs but not everyone will spend $200 for an EQ or Comp plug. If some S1 users buy the S1 extensions at half price, that's income the plugin vendor would have not otherwise seen... so... win/win... for the company and the end user.

All hypothetical of course.

[dsan@mail.com]

Here's what I see as the "potential" value in this method for audio plugins. I say "potential" because I have no clue if they plan to do it or not. Getting discounted 3rd party audio plugins as extensions.

Example: Rather than paying $199 for Fab Filter ProQ, I would buy it as a $50-60 extension that only works in S1, since I only mostly work in S1. That would be fine with me and I wouldn't much care about using that plugin in any other software.

In this hypothetical situation, should I later decide that I want the full VST/AU to use in other software, I would upgrade with the 3rd party company directly, getting some credit towards that purchase for already having paid for the S1 extension.

That's my hope anyway. There would seem to be some real value in that for some higher priced 3rd party plugin vendors, to get some sales from people who otherwise can't really afford their products. It might also be viable to deliver some higher ticket plugs that way that might otherwise be on iLok.

Kinda like the best of both worlds? Like the Reason store but with the option to skip it all and just buy the full plugin 3rd party and use that.

You can hope but I am pretty sure you won't live to see that. Would be nice, though, but it is not the principle of those stores in general. They just want to sell their stuff and bind the customer to their product line, and this is what I seriously don't like about the store concept.
If presonus (or any vendor that decides to open a dedictated store) just sells additional features to their DAW, I can live with that, but I fear that this will soon be extended to plugins you can only use in that DAW, like with reason. Great for the vendor, not so great for the customer.

Actually, I do see that happening; at some point, maybe not right away. I am surprised devs have not already incorporated it into their business practices.

It is another source of revenue generation.

While I agree it is not to the customer's benefit, and I would be against it, some already incorporate the concept with updates alone. If, for example, you want the 64 bit version of a product you have to purchase it (Cantanya, ST3, to name a couple.)

It will depend on the dev and how greedy, or how much they need the revenues to stay afloat. I see Waves doing this very soon TBH.

JM2C

Happy Musiking!
dsan

[standalone]

What CompyFox is saying is that none of the Cubase functionality (except mp3 of course) can be purchased as an add-on and he - hopes - that will be the case with S1, that (maybe?) if you want say, Open Air or PipeLine or something else that might show up later for Pro in Artist or Producer, you can maybe one day just buy it as an extension for $30, and not have to upgrade to Pro just to get it.

He 'hopes' that 'maybe' Presonus someday shows Steinberg 'a finger' or two, but he surely will be using Cubase anyway.

About paying for plugins tied to a host, I don't know, I use several hosts and I'm not sure if that would be worth it for me.

It's interesting that some of the latest Cubase plugins like Padshop and Retrologue are also available in Studio One as vst3 without having to purchase any additional license. I don't know if that's the case with some of the ones included in 7.5, like the new reverb, the new Groove Agent, etc.

[LawrenceF]

Re: The hypothetical...

As opposed to the Reason store model which is static, I don't see how that other option could ever be a bad thing in any case... with it being just an option.

Nobody would ever have to buy any 3rd party plugin as an S1 only extension if's it also available for sale standalone like it always has been. It would be 100% optional to do that. The only reason for any end user to ever do that would be to save money. The only reason a plugin vendor would allow that would be to make money he wouldn't otherwise make, from S1 users who would never pay $200 for any audio plugin in any case.

I don't personally see any potential negativity coming from any of that. Anyone not interested in a "my host only" reduced cost version would just keep doing what they're already doing.

Of course, if you're a person who owns and actually use 5 different DAW's it's probably not an option you'd ever consider. If you - only - use Cubase, or S1, or PT, you might consider doing that, buying a single host version of an plugin at a very attractive reduced price... because of that single host limitation.

It's not like those companies would suddenly stop making the regular VST/AU plugs for everyone else.

Anyway, it was just a hypothetical thought on what would be completely optional. Of course, on the net everything has a downside to somebody somehow, even if there is no actual practical downside.

[Compyfox]

I might use a different host, if it would offer the same, if not better, capabilities as Cubase does currently.

To me, things like MIDI (hardware integration), Input filters/gain/trim and certain tools are important (i.e. I grew fond of the chord track, and actually 7.5 offers certain new things that I've yet to find in other hosts). If S1, made by former Cubase SX programmers, would implement that and drop the feeling to be "always on a cloud system" - then a switch is highly considerable.


Regarding the hypothetical thinking of LawrenceF:
I highly support the idea to strip the hosts of their "additional content" again, and focus on the very basics. If Cubase - for example - would drop Halion One, the sample content and what else, but keeps the Chord Track, the MIDI instruments (at least the beat designer, though I wrote a couple of devs to maybe create something similar) and the FX plugins (most of them anyway). Then sell Cubase for 399EUR instead of 599EUR. Then call this new version Pro, while the "Instrument and Sample Enhanced" version could be called "Pro Extended"... well then a lot of people would actually be more happy towards interim upgrade fees and the regular upgrade fees. Then Cubase Artist could turn into LE/AI what it is currently (sans the 4 insert limitation), and "Studio" is the entry level.

Less versions, less upgrade trouble.


So far I didn't get any mail regarding a survey. But Steinberg knows how I think about this already. So in certain ways, Presonus is showing their former employers the finger - in thinking different, and keeping things moderately simple. (IMO)

Now there's only hope for S1 v3 to built up on the MIDI engine a bit, maybe implement some ideas from PT/Logic/Cubase while staying true to their current engine. Then I'll definitely take another look. Again!

Until then, I stick with the devil and be happy.