Sonar X3 vs reaper for midi

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I keep reading that reaper is not that great for midi, and that Sonar X3 is better. But looking at the piano roll (I know, not the only thing!), reaper mops the floor with Sonar.

I'm evaluating Sonar...
1- I seem to miss most of the plugins after install the (gigantic) demo exe from the site. Then they have a giant extra download list but I cannot access the links at all, see here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/page ... tions.aspx (not live links)

Maybe because of the missing plugins, when I run the demo project, sonar crashes.

2 - Also synths that receive mousewheel events on reaper for knob tweaking (Armor, Crystal) do NOT in sonar. What is wrong here?

I must be doing something wrong...

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My tests show that sonar X3 doesn't recognise the mouse wheel when controlling plug-ins.

With regard to the midi there were a couple of deal breakers for me.
If you set up a midi loop with auto quantize enabled. Then start layering up a drum beat. After recording for example the kick drum. When the loop returns the beginning the kick drops notes on playback. Which is pretty unhelpful if you want to start layering the snare on the next pass. You have to stop playback and restart for the kick to sound without dropping notes. her's a video I made showing the behaviour.
http://www.screencast.com/t/wk0bcP4KcrC4
Although I must emphasize this problem only arises when you have auto quantize enabled.

Another problem I encountered was with regard to looped midi recording. In Samplitude you can enable midi overdub mode.This means when you record several passes of midi all the midi is added to the one single midi object. In Sonar each pass creates its own separate object and they are stacked on top of each other. So you end up having to merge all the parts together afterwards which I find very inconvenient. So basically auto merge of midi in overdub mode doesn't exist. I contacted support a while back about both these issues. but nothing changed Sonar X3d.

Neither of these issues exist in Reaper.
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My Samplitude/Sequoia Tutorials are here :
http://www.youtube.com/kraznet

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urlwolf wrote:I keep reading that reaper is not that great for midi, and that Sonar X3 is better. But looking at the piano roll (I know, not the only thing!), reaper mops the floor with Sonar.

I'm evaluating Sonar...
1- I seem to miss most of the plugins after install the (gigantic) demo exe from the site. Then they have a giant extra download list but I cannot access the links at all, see here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/page ... tions.aspx (not live links)

Maybe because of the missing plugins, when I run the demo project, sonar crashes.

2 - Also synths that receive mousewheel events on reaper for knob tweaking (Armor, Crystal) do NOT in sonar. What is wrong here?

I must be doing something wrong...
When it comes to the PRV, what specifically do you like in Reaper that's not in Sonar?

There were also complains on the Sonar forum about some plugin or other not being part of the demo that the website indicated was. Sounds like they may have done a poor job of organizing the demo release.

Regarding mouse events: I wouldn't be surprised if Sonar doesn't do it. It's not something I really use often even now that I'm on Studio One, but I NEVER remember using it in Sonar.

Regarding crashes: yeah, that may have nothing to do with the missing plugins. The biggest problem with Sonar IMO is the stability. I'm not going to get into it again here, there's already a large X3 thread here on KVR with lots of opinions (including from Cakewalk developers) and you can go into the Cakewalk forums for even more of that, but basically: a lot of people have problems with Sonar, and the response from the Sonar fanboys is usually "it's your system - works great here." It's been that way for years, and not getting much better IMO. If Cakewalk could do a better job of sorting out stability, it'd be a great host, but I'd rather use something with a few less features that doesn't give me problems (Studio One) until then.

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Kraznet wrote:With regard to the midi there were a couple of deal breakers for me.
Understandable. The loop recording issue should be fixed and the auto-merge recording mode should be available (although neither are show stoppers for me).
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:The biggest problem with Sonar IMO is the stability. I'm not going to get into it again here, there's already a large X3 thread here on KVR with lots of opinions (including from Cakewalk developers) and you can go into the Cakewalk forums for even more of that, but basically: a lot of people have problems with Sonar, and the response from the Sonar fanboys is usually "it's your system - works great here." It's been that way for years, and not getting much better IMO.
I've been checking the Sonar forum daily for the last one year or so and the number of threads on stability issues seems to have dropped dramatically since X3.
SONAR X3e & Studio One Producer 2.6.2

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Kraznet wrote:My tests show that sonar X3 doesn't recognise the mouse wheel when controlling plug-ins.

With regard to the midi there were a couple of deal breakers for me.
If you set up a midi loop with auto quantize enabled. Then start layering up a drum beat. After recording for example the kick drum. When the loop returns the beginning the kick drops notes on playback. Which is pretty unhelpful if you want to start layering the snare on the next pass. You have to stop playback and restart for the kick to sound without dropping notes. her's a video I made showing the behaviour.
http://www.screencast.com/t/wk0bcP4KcrC4
Although I must emphasize this problem only arises when you have auto quantize enabled.

Another problem I encountered was with regard to looped midi recording. In Samplitude you can enable midi overdub mode.This means when you record several passes of midi all the midi is added to the one single midi object. In Sonar each pass creates its own separate object and they are stacked on top of each other. So you end up having to merge all the parts together afterwards which I find very inconvenient. So basically auto merge of midi in overdub mode doesn't exist. I contacted support a while back about both these issues. but nothing changed Sonar X3d.

Neither of these issues exist in Reaper.
I saw your video. I tried to reproduce it and yes, you are right :(

There is a drop/ignored notes when record quantize :x
Yes, it is annoying really when I want to record my own playing (drums). They need to fix it and also make it possible to record in the step sequencer as well!

Also, the Piano Roll is showing one take at a time, when it loops, it shows the temporary take, which is empty till you hit something. It needs to show the whole layers recorded or exist. This is a bug not a feature!

The midi overdubbing needs to be in one lane! :x
They used the 'Take' and 'Comping' concept too much!

I really hope Cakewalk will fix it because it kills the fun of drums midi playing/recording.

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sorry to hijack the thread but i am demonig X3 at the moment and the way instrument tracks is handle seems to be unbelievably awkward. am i missing something or do i have to create an instrument track out of audio and midi ones? i am talking about inserting VSTi into a project.

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bronxsound wrote:sorry to hijack the thread but i am demonig X3 at the moment and the way instrument tracks is handle seems to be unbelievably awkward. am i missing something or do i have to create an instrument track out of audio and midi ones? i am talking about inserting VSTi into a project.
It is very easy really and you have at least 3 ways (that I know of!).

1. From the menu: Insert/Soft Synth/...
2. From the Browser (press B to show it), choose the synth tab and click '+' then 'insert soft synth' ...etc.
3. Browser / Plugins tab / Synth icon (tab) / VST2 and drag the synth you want and drop it on the tracks pane (Studio One way!)

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I've had the same quantize and stacked midi clip irritations as mentioned; even with X3. I've also complained to Cakewalk to try to solve the Q issue with no luck. What I discovered long ago in the Cakewalk forum is that a lot of those guys don't use input Q... because a lot of them step record or quantize after the fact. They also prefer stacked midi clips, so they could care less about the issue which is why nothing gets changed because of a lack of complaints.

There are certain cars that are marketed towards older adults that younger drivers have no interest in or it doesn't fit their style. If you go back to the 90ies... I'm certain you can picture such vehicles. I see Sonar as being a program equivalent to such cars. Someone should do a poll on the average age demographic of Sonar. CW needs to stop putting all their eggs solely into this program and start offering other apps that are geared towards younger customers that want more groove oriented tools. Sears ended up closings it's doors because they failed to cater to the youth as they held on to doing business the old way. They (CW) need to come up with a newer version of Kinetic or Project5 to get more sales from the under 50 crowd. There's already a built-in customer base for those products!

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EnGee wrote:
bronxsound wrote:sorry to hijack the thread but i am demonig X3 at the moment and the way instrument tracks is handle seems to be unbelievably awkward. am i missing something or do i have to create an instrument track out of audio and midi ones? i am talking about inserting VSTi into a project.
It is very easy really and you have at least 3 ways (that I know of!).

1. From the menu: Insert/Soft Synth/...
2. From the Browser (press B to show it), choose the synth tab and click '+' then 'insert soft synth' ...etc.
3. Browser / Plugins tab / Synth icon (tab) / VST2 and drag the synth you want and drop it on the tracks pane (Studio One way!)
cheers mate

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pc2000 wrote:I've had the same quantize and stacked midi clip irritations as mentioned; even with X3. I've also complained to Cakewalk to try to solve the Q issue with no luck. What I discovered long ago in the Cakewalk forum is that a lot of those guys don't use input Q... because a lot of them step record or quantize after the fact. They also prefer stacked midi clips, so they could care less about the issue which is why nothing gets changed because of a lack of complaints.

There are certain cars that are marketed towards older adults that younger drivers have no interest in or it doesn't fit their style. If you go back to the 90ies... I'm certain you can picture such vehicles. I see Sonar as being a program equivalent to such cars. Someone should do a poll on the average age demographic of Sonar. CW needs to stop putting all their eggs solely into this program and start offering other apps that are geared towards younger customers that want more groove oriented tools. Sears ended up closings it's doors because they failed to cater to the youth as they held on to doing business the old way. They (CW) need to come up with a newer version of Kinetic or Project5 to get more sales from the under 50 crowd. There's already a built-in customer base for those products!
I hope cakewalk can fix it soon. There is a thread in their forum about it. Still not so old, latest post about 3 weeks ago. So, I'm keeping my eye on it:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/Loop-recordin ... 55605.aspx

If Cakewalk would choose to implement Project 5 workflow and enhanced it more especially using the matrix and step sequencer + some controllers support, I think it would win many guys especially those with Electronic Music love (not necessary DJ or Dance), but if it is going the Pro Tools way (studio, band, audio, ...etc), then I'm not in.

For Reaper it doesn't have the quantize/midi loop recording bug, but damn how patient I must be! I already enabled the loop here and there and there, but when recorded it didn't loop, it continued (not a bug, it just i missed something, now let's search what I have missed). No, no reaper! thank you. It is an excellent DAW for those who have excellent memory and patience. I don't have both!
Two months ago I was watching the tutorials by Kenny Gioia in Groove3 about Reaper, and I began to going around it in a confidence. Now, I forgot most of them, I need to see these tutorials again! But I am not subscribed to Groove3 anymore!
This is my problem I know, I'm not generalising anything.

What 's left? Let's see, Live and Cubase. Ableton Live is No 1 for me now in midi composing. Still suddenly crashes from time to time, but for Midi/not very traditional composing guys I think it is the best for now, although its standard or suite price hurts :cry:

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Kraznet wrote:My tests show that sonar X3 doesn't recognise the mouse wheel when controlling plug-ins.

With regard to the midi there were a couple of deal breakers for me.
If you set up a midi loop with auto quantize enabled. Then start layering up a drum beat. After recording for example the kick drum. When the loop returns the beginning the kick drops notes on playback. Which is pretty unhelpful if you want to start layering the snare on the next pass. You have to stop playback and restart for the kick to sound without dropping notes. her's a video I made showing the behaviour.
http://www.screencast.com/t/wk0bcP4KcrC4
Although I must emphasize this problem only arises when you have auto quantize enabled.

Another problem I encountered was with regard to looped midi recording. In Samplitude you can enable midi overdub mode.This means when you record several passes of midi all the midi is added to the one single midi object. In Sonar each pass creates its own separate object and they are stacked on top of each other. So you end up having to merge all the parts together afterwards which I find very inconvenient. So basically auto merge of midi in overdub mode doesn't exist. I contacted support a while back about both these issues. but nothing changed Sonar X3d.

Neither of these issues exist in Reaper.
Shhhhhh, sonar fanbois are watching, no one was spared, not even the children.

Quite right though, but S1 has the issue of dropping the first note too. However, at least it doesn't crash everytime you are working on something.

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Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
urlwolf wrote:I keep reading that reaper is not that great for midi, and that Sonar X3 is better. But looking at the piano roll (I know, not the only thing!), reaper mops the floor with Sonar.

I'm evaluating Sonar...
1- I seem to miss most of the plugins after install the (gigantic) demo exe from the site. Then they have a giant extra download list but I cannot access the links at all, see here:
http://www.cakewalk.com/support/kb/page ... tions.aspx (not live links)

Maybe because of the missing plugins, when I run the demo project, sonar crashes.

2 - Also synths that receive mousewheel events on reaper for knob tweaking (Armor, Crystal) do NOT in sonar. What is wrong here?

I must be doing something wrong...
When it comes to the PRV, what specifically do you like in Reaper that's not in Sonar?

There were also complains on the Sonar forum about some plugin or other not being part of the demo that the website indicated was. Sounds like they may have done a poor job of organizing the demo release.

Regarding mouse events: I wouldn't be surprised if Sonar doesn't do it. It's not something I really use often even now that I'm on Studio One, but I NEVER remember using it in Sonar.

Regarding crashes: yeah, that may have nothing to do with the missing plugins. The biggest problem with Sonar IMO is the stability. I'm not going to get into it again here, there's already a large X3 thread here on KVR with lots of opinions (including from Cakewalk developers) and you can go into the Cakewalk forums for even more of that, but basically: a lot of people have problems with Sonar, and the response from the Sonar fanboys is usually "it's your system - works great here." It's been that way for years, and not getting much better IMO. If Cakewalk could do a better job of sorting out stability, it'd be a great host, but I'd rather use something with a few less features that doesn't give me problems (Studio One) until then.
Well said

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EnGee wrote: I hope cakewalk can fix it soon.
I've been waiting for 8.5, to X1, to X2. If they haven't fixed it by X3d then it's not likely. Sorry to say, but that is what I've been through. Again, S1 has this issue to a certain degree, and tracktion had it so many years ago.

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The number of bugs in Sonar is incomparable to that in S1 (although mostly minor issues). Maybe it's because Sonar has been in the market for much longer and it's more feature-packed (aka bloated). Anyway, as a current user of Sonar, I can say Cakewalk are working very hard to fix issues.
SONAR X3e & Studio One Producer 2.6.2

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hibidy wrote:
EnGee wrote: I hope cakewalk can fix it soon.
I've been waiting for 8.5, to X1, to X2. If they haven't fixed it by X3d then it's not likely. Sorry to say, but that is what I've been through. Again, S1 has this issue to a certain degree, and tracktion had it so many years ago.
Except of such bugs, Sonar X3d is really a pleasure to work with. Stability is great really and cpu usage is little bit better than S1 (you should try it, maybe you would like it again). But for the fixes I'm not waiting too long! In the end of 2014 or so I will decide which 'full' program I would purchase/upgrade to. It might be Bitwig! who knows :hihi:
For now it is between Live and Sonar as I have a feeling that Studio One won't care about Midi that much, maybe notation, but not much midi/drums editing/ electronic part. I might be wrong and V3 would surprise me, so that I'm keeping my license till then.

Oh, and because of you hibidy, Ableton Live is No 1 for me now! :x I was a happy humble guy with just stability requirement for a DAW, but you put Live in my attention and then I wondered:" why would I stay in the stone age! I need advanced Midi and I need a flashy controller as well" :D Seriously, thanks because now with Live and Sonar there is no going back to S1 V2 for me ;-)

Oh, one other thing. I have hope in cakewalk because they already put Step Sequencer and Matrix. Now, those are not traditional way to compose, and they are still not 100% completed. The Matrix needs to be like the Session in live, so you can record into it directly and you can edit the cells (Midi or Audio) without going back to the tracks. I don't see the point that they keep those tools without enhancing them. It is not logical. But, it seems it depends on the management not the developers. Roland didn't do well to Cakewalk as Yamaha did to Cubase, but time will tell what the new direction for cakewalk will be.

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