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Tronam
KVRAF
 
1587 posts since 14 Mar, 2002, from Seattle, WA - USA

Postby Tronam; Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:27 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

vstyler wrote:Why would anyone have their soundcard at 1024? LOL

They probably wouldn't, but that's not the point. Why is Live introducing a full buffer's worth of lag each time you add a VST in sequence? Put another way, your setting of 64 only applies if you're only using native Live devices. The moment you add even one VST instrument or effect it immediately gets bumped up to 128 and so on.
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V0RT3X
KVRAF
 
6690 posts since 3 Jul, 2012, from Canada

Postby V0RT3X; Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:29 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Tronam wrote:
vstyler wrote:Why would anyone have their soundcard at 1024? LOL

They probably wouldn't, but that's not the point. Why is Live introducing a full buffer's worth of lag each time you add a VST in sequence? Put another way, your setting of 64 only applies if you're only using native Live devices. The moment you add even one VST instrument or effect it immediately gets bumped up to 128 and so on.


You positive this applies to every plugin?

It might be specific to certain plugins.
KVR caused an invalid page fault in module KERNEL32.DLL at 015f:bff7b997.
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Tronam
KVRAF
 
1587 posts since 14 Mar, 2002, from Seattle, WA - USA

Postby Tronam; Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:32 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Every single VST or AU I tested. The ones that introduce their own latency simply added it on top of that.
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V0RT3X
KVRAF
 
6690 posts since 3 Jul, 2012, from Canada

Postby V0RT3X; Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:36 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Tronam wrote:Every single VST or AU I tested. The ones that introduce their own latency simply added it on top of that.


I'll have to test this out when I get my Macbook Pro back up and running. I only can test these plugins because it's all i own.

Cytomic The Glue & The Drop
Fxpansion Synthsquad, Tremor, BFD Eco
Madrona Labs Aalto,
Cakewalk Z3TA+2 Mac
SpectrumWorx
Crusher-X 3 Mac (32bit only)
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jancivil
KVRAF
 
13259 posts since 20 Oct, 2007, from No Location

Postby jancivil; Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:20 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

vstyler wrote:Why would anyone have their soundcard at 1024? lol
People that do orchestral music, particularly a fullish symphonic template up, do it all the time. I have had to with probably a much more robust system than yours due to the amount of processing used. I tend to manage things so as to put that much latency off until later. You imagine that every person does what you do and never more than 'several plugins inline on a vocal track'? Fail.
2020
KVRist
 
80 posts since 18 Dec, 2010

Postby 2020; Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:00 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

I'll have to test this out when I get my Macbook Pro back up and running. I only can test these plugins because it's all i own.

Cytomic The Glue & The Drop
Fxpansion Synthsquad, Tremor, BFD Eco
Madrona Labs Aalto,
Cakewalk Z3TA+2 Mac
SpectrumWorx
Crusher-X 3 Mac (32bit only)


I can confirm it applies to every VST/AU plugin I've tested.

If you want to test it:
Change your plugin buffer latency to say 512
Turn PDC off (so it doesn''t compensate)
Put an identical audio loop on two channels
Put several instances of a dry VST or AU audio effect on the first channel

To me personally this is actually much worse than the broken PDC. That I can work around in various ways (e.g. only using zero latency plugins).
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Dean Aka Nekro
KVRAF
 
6180 posts since 4 Oct, 2007, from Escaped At Last

Postby Dean Aka Nekro; Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:17 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton?

echosystm wrote:This is unique to Disableton.

hibidy wrote:haha!

Disableton.


haha that one was quality, Tickled me :)
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Tronam
KVRAF
 
1587 posts since 14 Mar, 2002, from Seattle, WA - USA

Postby Tronam; Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:38 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

jancivil wrote:
vstyler wrote:Why would anyone have their soundcard at 1024? lol
People that do orchestral music, particularly a fullish symphonic template up, do it all the time. I have had to with probably a much more robust system than yours due to the amount of processing used. I tend to manage things so as to put that much latency off until later. You imagine that every person does what you do and never more than 'several plugins inline on a vocal track'? Fail.

Yes, for my larger soundtrack projects 512 or higher helps immensely with CPU usage.
krandr
KVRist
 
359 posts since 30 Jun, 2011

Postby krandr; Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:41 am Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Here is my solution how to prevent high latency on Ableton 8:
1. Plugin buffer size - 128 samples
2. One VST wrapper per audio patch. I'm using KORE2 FX - it is VST wrapper without latency :)
3. VST wrapper connected to Master bus

Now my fingers can play fast :)

Unfortunately Live 9 has fixed Plugin buffer size with amount of your audio buffer size :(
Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
 
5559 posts since 12 May, 2008

Postby Echoes in the Attic; Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:23 am Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

There's no need to test, it's confirmed by Ableton. Every plug-in adds the audio buffer of latency. And not only plug-ins. Every Max for Live device adds the audio buffer of latency. This to me is even crazier because there are many little Max for Live utilities and tools and they can add up quick.

This is what really aggravates the PDC issue in Live. Synced effects and automation go off when you have longish effects chains and you are especially prevented from working at high audio buffers because it screws up everything. It would normally make sense to work at higher buffers when not recording live since it's easier on CPU, but with Live it's just not a good idea.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.
2020
KVRist
 
80 posts since 18 Dec, 2010

Postby 2020; Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:32 am Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Echoes,

Do you know if Ableton has given any explanation for this added latency per plugin behaviour? Is it a live performance/gapless audio engine thing?
Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
 
5559 posts since 12 May, 2008

Postby Echoes in the Attic; Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:55 am Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

2020 wrote:Echoes,

Do you know if Ableton has given any explanation for this added latency per plugin behaviour? Is it a live performance/gapless audio engine thing?


There did used to be a separate plug-in buffer setting in prefences that was set by default to "As Audio buffer" but you could change it to lower. But they removed it because they said it caused issues sometimes having them set to different values. I don't know what issues, their words.

With other hosts you can load as many third party effects in a row as you want with whatever buffer you want and the latency doesn't change (provided they are zero latency plugs). This is true for Bitwig as well which is performance oriented. So I don't know what the deal is there.
This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit. Once I have something clever, I will certainly fill it in.
2020
KVRist
 
80 posts since 18 Dec, 2010

Postby 2020; Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:00 am Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Yeah. I'm still on 8 so I do have that setting.

I vaguely remember a lengthy answer from Robert Henke on the Ableton forum about this but can't find that post now or recall the explanation.

Still, as you say, other plugin hosts manage this, so why not Live...
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Ingonator
KVRAF
 
11617 posts since 21 Mar, 2008, from Hannover, Germany

Postby Ingonator; Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:33 am Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

Working several years with Live and did not really notice PDC issues during that time.
The release and all that talk about PDC was going on my nerves so i thought i would have to do a test myself and one that is at least close to features i use myself.


So based on what i was reading here I decided to do a test with a buffer of 512 and in Live 9.1.1 64-bit (on Windows 7 64-bit).

I created two tracks with a Saurus pad sound where i reduced the attack and release to 0, turned off internal FXs and and panned the two tracks hard left and hard right.

In track 1 no FXs added while in track 2 i added (all FXs switched on):
TAL Chorus-LX and ArtsAcoustic Big Rock Phase Shifter, PSP NobleQex (EQ), Stillwell Audio Bombardier Bus Compressor.

Here are some tests and the results:


A) PDC switched on, no automation used

After rendering audio, listening to the audio and also checking inside Wavelab Elements 7 i did not find any delay with the two stereo channels that coorespond to the synth without and with FXs.

B) PDC switched off, no automation used

Without PDC there is indeed a delay that corresponds to around 4 x 512 samples (with the 4 FXs mentioned above used). So each FX adds the size of the buffer like others mentioned here.

C) PDC switched on, automation for the track volume used

Now i tried to do a test for automation of the track volume which is one kind of automation i use quite often.
I had set the automation in a way that for one of the sustained chords for the pad sounds the volue is set to 0 which means with this chord no sound should be noticed.

I rendered the two Saurus tracks (again panned left and right) to a new audio track.

In this case (buffer at 512) the result looked like this:
Image

There seems to be some delay with the auomation and at the stereo channel with the 4 FXs i hear a very short sound while the other stereo channel stays quiet like intended.

I then tried to change the buffer size to 256 and then 128 and the results looked like this:
- buffer at 256:
Image
- buffer at 128:
Image

With 128 the delay almost completely seems to disappear and the sound is too short to really notice it.


With the example at a buffer of e.g. 512 this could be corrected by slightly shifting the right border of the automation:
Image


The reason why i never noticed this could be based on the fact that in a busy track with layered sounds and/or multiple sounds playing at the same time this kind of very short unwanted sound is hard or impossible to notice.
It is only really easy to notice if you really have a silent part like in this example.

Of course it also depends on how many FXs you use in one track and how much buffer you are using. Finally this should mostly happen when using automation which is not always the case.

While this indeed is not really nice it will not really hold me back from using Live in the future. In almost any case it should be possible to solve this when needed.

'

Ingo
Ingo Weidner
HW: Blofeld, Pulse 2, UltraNova, Bass Station 2
SW: PPG 3.V, Largo, Nave, Icarus, Avenger, Serum, Legend, Saurus 2, Diva, Repro-5, VC 6, Komplete 10, many more
i5-3350P / Win 10 x64 / Live 9 / Cubase Pro 9.5 / Bitwig 2 / Studio One 3
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Tronam
KVRAF
 
1587 posts since 14 Mar, 2002, from Seattle, WA - USA

Postby Tronam; Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:14 pm Re: Cumulative buffer latency in Ableton??

In my case it means that unless I run Live at extremely low buffer sizes, which I can't do with large arrangements, the latency starts adding up quickly. It essentially nullifies the value of zero latency plugins because there's no such thing outside of the native devices. I love Live, but the way Ableton implemented 3rd party plugin support is perplexing.
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