Is Presonus Neglection Studio One
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- KVRian
- 1051 posts since 31 Mar, 2012
Good advice, thanks. Now how do I get rid of the news feed?
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- KVRian
- 933 posts since 25 Dec, 2007 from Hamburg,Germany
To me, the topic indirectly is adressing something:
what is missing the most here is
- transparency of product (many ways to do it like dev roadmap, reflecting list of bugfixes, specific S1 tutorials etc),
- communication (many ways to do it like survey, forum moderation, reflecting list of user priorities etc)
- worldwide support (nothing more to say I suppose)
From the above, all in all I would say the imbalance is,
users are anticipating with the product and company
and the company is communicating the impression of not anticipating with the users.
As a user, one can easily run into the feeling of being lost and left alone
or maybe running a dead horse because of missing public communication regarding S1.
If you want an example on how a company can be in a strong relationship with users
I suggest to visit Cocko`s daw Reaper.
If you want an example on how a company can be in a weak relationship with users
I suggest to visit Steinberg`s daws Cubase/Nuendo.
According to the topic, my personal concern with Presonus is
of watching them to run into the same major mistakes Steinberg did.
Instead of learning the psychology behind Cocko`s approach
and understanding on how a company can profit from it in the long run,
Presonus is following the Steinberg "looky here, what the new version has" short thrill and excitement
just to see later on those thrilling features are mostly half baked potatoes
and endless bug reports/feature requests are bound to happen.
And to top this, serious core issues reported from users are carried with all and any updates without having them fixied.
I think at this point I do not have to repeat the basic core issues reported by users regarding S1.
A strong relationship to users is the key, i.e. Avid does this with fully adressed video tuts from the pros.
(maybe not something for everyone, but there is a concept behind it)
Another point,
Rick is reported to have said they don`t really care what other companies are doing with their daws ...
if I get the context right, another big mistake from the past.
I.e. looking at Avid`s Protools well thought mixer gui, one can learn a lot of what users are in need for
when it comes to mixing stage ... like in Magix Samplitude, let the layout be their own, but ...
how about minimalistic everyday requests to have channel tools directly handy like phase switch,
how about independent l/r on insert and return (ever heard a mix with different l/r settings on various channels out of just one return ?)
how about coloration of the entire channel (see the difference on projects with tracks of 50+)
No need to copy anything, but simply look at other daws and get inspired !
Thats actually how music production works and what musicians always do, they get inspired by others.
Translated to daws, users will benefit in all possible ways ...
what is missing the most here is
- transparency of product (many ways to do it like dev roadmap, reflecting list of bugfixes, specific S1 tutorials etc),
- communication (many ways to do it like survey, forum moderation, reflecting list of user priorities etc)
- worldwide support (nothing more to say I suppose)
From the above, all in all I would say the imbalance is,
users are anticipating with the product and company
and the company is communicating the impression of not anticipating with the users.
As a user, one can easily run into the feeling of being lost and left alone
or maybe running a dead horse because of missing public communication regarding S1.
If you want an example on how a company can be in a strong relationship with users
I suggest to visit Cocko`s daw Reaper.
If you want an example on how a company can be in a weak relationship with users
I suggest to visit Steinberg`s daws Cubase/Nuendo.
According to the topic, my personal concern with Presonus is
of watching them to run into the same major mistakes Steinberg did.
Instead of learning the psychology behind Cocko`s approach
and understanding on how a company can profit from it in the long run,
Presonus is following the Steinberg "looky here, what the new version has" short thrill and excitement
just to see later on those thrilling features are mostly half baked potatoes
and endless bug reports/feature requests are bound to happen.
And to top this, serious core issues reported from users are carried with all and any updates without having them fixied.
I think at this point I do not have to repeat the basic core issues reported by users regarding S1.
A strong relationship to users is the key, i.e. Avid does this with fully adressed video tuts from the pros.
(maybe not something for everyone, but there is a concept behind it)
Another point,
Rick is reported to have said they don`t really care what other companies are doing with their daws ...
if I get the context right, another big mistake from the past.
I.e. looking at Avid`s Protools well thought mixer gui, one can learn a lot of what users are in need for
when it comes to mixing stage ... like in Magix Samplitude, let the layout be their own, but ...
how about minimalistic everyday requests to have channel tools directly handy like phase switch,
how about independent l/r on insert and return (ever heard a mix with different l/r settings on various channels out of just one return ?)
how about coloration of the entire channel (see the difference on projects with tracks of 50+)
No need to copy anything, but simply look at other daws and get inspired !
Thats actually how music production works and what musicians always do, they get inspired by others.
Translated to daws, users will benefit in all possible ways ...
Intel i7-4790K | Gigabyte Z97X-UD3H | 32GB Crucial Ballistix Sport | RME Babyface Pro | UAD PCIe Octo, Quad | Asus GT 730 | Toshiba DT01ACA200 2TB | LG GH24NSB0 | W10 Pro 64bit | S1 latest
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- KVRAF
- 42529 posts since 21 Dec, 2005
Some good points. Still, I feel there is something bubbling below the surface when it comes to staff/direction. I dunno, maybe they are in too deep, not deep enough. We (the users that hopefully paid) are in a constant state of flux with these companies. When they don't deliver the goods, we bitch. If they put something out that isn't right, we bitch.
So there is the thought that "people are going to bitch no matter what we do, so we'll do it our way"
Not saying S1 is in this boat, but it's not far off the base.
Also, there are too many people that are like "well, I'm fine with it so other suggestions be damned" and the disdain for EDM people (which I do on top of the audio stuff, btw) when I think that the future should include that more.
S1 is a good product. I'm not out much dinero, there are some things that PISS ME THE HELL OFF, but it's mostly stable and does what I want.
Over and out
So there is the thought that "people are going to bitch no matter what we do, so we'll do it our way"
Not saying S1 is in this boat, but it's not far off the base.
Also, there are too many people that are like "well, I'm fine with it so other suggestions be damned" and the disdain for EDM people (which I do on top of the audio stuff, btw) when I think that the future should include that more.
S1 is a good product. I'm not out much dinero, there are some things that PISS ME THE HELL OFF, but it's mostly stable and does what I want.
Over and out
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- KVRAF
- 5805 posts since 8 May, 2008 from ssssskipping ......... I left you there
Yeah, in the loooooooooooooooooooooooong run ...Omkar wrote:Instead of learning the psychology behind Cocko`s approach
and understanding on how a company can profit from it in the long run ...
"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig."
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- KVRAF
- 6155 posts since 4 Dec, 2004
Interestingly enough, that's one of the main things I like about it.hibidy wrote:So there is the thought that "people are going to bitch no matter what we do, so we'll do it our way ..."
Not kidding at all. 
I got on board at 1.0 and I immediately liked the UI and the drag and drop but (obviously) it was missing a lot of features, so like everyone else, I made a ton of FR's from other daws. But curiously enough, the things I like about it most are the things that nobody even asked for, stuff done "their way", like Transform and the Automation Transformer, the plugin tabs, the group source lists, etc, etc.
People would have been happy with a more limited freeze function like Cubase but they took their time and did something much better. People would have been happy with a limited thing like Cubase's audio warp, but they took their time and did something much better. Many asked for folder tracks and they took their time and delivered really nice folder tracks with bus assignments where the audio and midi is exposed for editing on closed folders.
"Glass half full?" ... or ... "...what have you done for me lately?"
Anyway, sometime between 1.5 and 2.0 or so I decided to just enjoy the ride and see what else they come up with.
Maybe I have a different perspective having been on board from 1.0, but when people say they don't do user FR's, I actually directly wonder what they're talking about.
Freeze, Pre-Record Buffers, "Something like Variaudio", Faster Stem Rendering, and even the Exchange was an FR, people early on asking to be able to easily share samples and presets. Many asked to be able to directly record instruments in real time to audio tracks and they delivered what is arguably the easiest method I've ever seen to do that.The x.xX releases like 2.6x seem to be mostly maintenance releases but even 3 of the 5 "adds" in 2.62 were things directly based on user complaints...
- The last ten autosaves are now automatically archived into the versions list ("Autosave sucks! Do something!"
)- Optimized ARA data-saving to speed up autosave ("Why is autosave so slow with ARA songs!!?"
)- “Remove unused files” command in the Pool now removes associated Melodyne data ("Why do songs that no longer use Melodyne still say 'Loading Melodyne???!!!"
)Actually ... 4 of 5 since ... "- Support for Studio One Add-ons" ... was at least partly based on people using S1 Artist and constantly griping about there being no way to add MP3 support to it... now they can just buy it instead of upgrading.
I suppose it's all a matter of personal perspective. Some asked for ASIO DM and they got it in 2.6, per track switchable no less.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Not to mention that if there is an issue with the VST SDK, the support responds way better and more open minded compared to the creators of the SDK in the first place.
I need more time with S1 - need to re-try it again. But please one of the big versions.
I also tried Reaper in my frustration with Cubase 7 and during the period where I built a studio for a youth club.
Both have their strengths, both have their definite weaknesses. But both(!) at least have fair prices still, while one of the big 3 raised the prices on all their hosts and general updates recently - and in turn introduced a sh*tload of issues that are pushed away as "user fault".
Again... I am curious what Studio One v3 will offer to the table.
If we get a similar (if not better) chord track system, and it will have a step sequencer for beats, built in VariAudio (which can be harmonized), has a good time stretching engine, comes bundled with great VST plugins, maybe get's a pre-filter module that doesn't use up an insert slot AND gets an enhancement in the MIDI section.... on top of that, no f*cking additional fees for .5 versions every 10-12 months (other developers should have learned from the mistakes by others by now)...
Maybe then I'll take another closer look.
Crossgrading is a joke (read: fair priced) compared to all other companies. And I can even load my Cubase projects in there (sans Cubase host internal stuff, but still).
I need more time with S1 - need to re-try it again. But please one of the big versions.
I also tried Reaper in my frustration with Cubase 7 and during the period where I built a studio for a youth club.
Both have their strengths, both have their definite weaknesses. But both(!) at least have fair prices still, while one of the big 3 raised the prices on all their hosts and general updates recently - and in turn introduced a sh*tload of issues that are pushed away as "user fault".
Again... I am curious what Studio One v3 will offer to the table.
If we get a similar (if not better) chord track system, and it will have a step sequencer for beats, built in VariAudio (which can be harmonized), has a good time stretching engine, comes bundled with great VST plugins, maybe get's a pre-filter module that doesn't use up an insert slot AND gets an enhancement in the MIDI section.... on top of that, no f*cking additional fees for .5 versions every 10-12 months (other developers should have learned from the mistakes by others by now)...
Maybe then I'll take another closer look.
Crossgrading is a joke (read: fair priced) compared to all other companies. And I can even load my Cubase projects in there (sans Cubase host internal stuff, but still).
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- KVRAF
- 6155 posts since 4 Dec, 2004
Yeah, maybe. To be perfectly clear, I'm obviously a fan of the product and use it almost exclusively but I'm actually not a delusional fanboy.Compyfox wrote:I need more time with S1 - need to re-try it again. But please one of the big versions.
Anyone who thinks or suggests S1 in it's current state is comparable to Cubase for midi for power midi users like I assume you to be, a power midi guy, is living in some kind of alternate reality where pigs fly Air Force jets. It holds up much better on the audio side in that comparison, not so much on the midi side... for people who actually need all of what Cubase brings to the table for midi. I mean, S1 doesn't even have midi plugins yet so... one would have to be kinda delusional to compare them in any way that would make immediate sense for a "power midi user".
I mean, seeing what Hans Zimmer does with midi scoring I would seriously doubt if S1 would be enough of a midi sequencer toolset for him.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Cubase pretty much ignored "MIDI plugins" years ago. Barely any developer is going for it. So all you have left, are the MIDI plugins you have bundled with Cubase.
Everything else is handled though VSTi and MIDi routing.
Though it took Steinberg since Cubase 4(!) to finally unlock the then newly introduced Instrument Track to something usable, and clearly hinted at a possible drop of the old Instrument Rack. Yes, they are kind of slow on that behalf.
The Chord Track is actually a cool implementation, but the usability is absolute sh*t, the GUI look is non-intuitive, the documentation is insufficient (also barely any usable tutorials available). For example: I filed a FR to use a Cycle of 5th instead several times (I mean, if they already copy the concept by Cochleor, they can also go for that!). I filed even more for the MixConsole - until some "Support Person" I rather not mention by name admitted at GearSlutz, that in order to fix all bugs - the "Console needs to be reprogrammed from scratch". What that hell?!
And now that Elastique v3 is out by zplane, which seems to be a drastic update from the old algo's, I think this will only be implemented "paid" with Cubase 8 as well. Hm... whatever! Money grows on trees!
MIDI is important for me, if I want to reintegrate my hardware gear. Old MIDI synths, controlling FX modules. Heck I even prefer to run my BCR2000 through the MIDI ports rather than the USB ports (MIDI ports are the only way to program it correctly!).
MIDI will never die out. Especially for those that use both software and hardware (old gear even). If Studio One lacks behind on that, so be it. This was also the reason why I did not go for Cubase SX1 and SX2 - until SX2.2 finally reintroduced certain MIDI usability again. And 2 months later came SX3. At that time, I was still mainly on hardware.
Presonus can only learn from the mistakes by other developers.
And I do have high hopes for them. Their support was so far fast towards me, they listen to FR's, they listen to bug reports (especially by 3rd party devs), their general vibe is a bit more relaxed IMO. Though they can be a bit slow as well.
With Steinberg I constantly have the feeling, that they need to be purged or "reset" every 3-5 years in order to function again properly, drop down from their high horses. I mean... I am a f*cking paying customer, I invest a sh*tload of money in their tools and it takes them up to a month or several calls to the 0900 (1,30c/Min) phone line until they finally respond! Heck, I should have noted down the German-regular number to the support. I'd only call them through these channels!
I am being treated like a mindless idiot that has no rights whatsoever. I am only allowed to pay and STFU. Not cool IMO.
And while Presonus doesn't seem to be that fast or supportive towards their customer base once in a while either (looking at the web boards and the complaints), they at least DO something to keep their user base fairly happy and not constantly piss them off.
Reminds me of one of the many Lion and Jackal tales. Especially the one, where the Jackal mentions that he knows how to please the stronger Lion by only being happy with a smaller portion of the hunt. In turn, he kept all the positive benefits of being "friends" with a Lion.
Other companies can clearly learn from that...
Everything else is handled though VSTi and MIDi routing.
Though it took Steinberg since Cubase 4(!) to finally unlock the then newly introduced Instrument Track to something usable, and clearly hinted at a possible drop of the old Instrument Rack. Yes, they are kind of slow on that behalf.
The Chord Track is actually a cool implementation, but the usability is absolute sh*t, the GUI look is non-intuitive, the documentation is insufficient (also barely any usable tutorials available). For example: I filed a FR to use a Cycle of 5th instead several times (I mean, if they already copy the concept by Cochleor, they can also go for that!). I filed even more for the MixConsole - until some "Support Person" I rather not mention by name admitted at GearSlutz, that in order to fix all bugs - the "Console needs to be reprogrammed from scratch". What that hell?!
And now that Elastique v3 is out by zplane, which seems to be a drastic update from the old algo's, I think this will only be implemented "paid" with Cubase 8 as well. Hm... whatever! Money grows on trees!
MIDI is important for me, if I want to reintegrate my hardware gear. Old MIDI synths, controlling FX modules. Heck I even prefer to run my BCR2000 through the MIDI ports rather than the USB ports (MIDI ports are the only way to program it correctly!).
MIDI will never die out. Especially for those that use both software and hardware (old gear even). If Studio One lacks behind on that, so be it. This was also the reason why I did not go for Cubase SX1 and SX2 - until SX2.2 finally reintroduced certain MIDI usability again. And 2 months later came SX3. At that time, I was still mainly on hardware.
Presonus can only learn from the mistakes by other developers.
And I do have high hopes for them. Their support was so far fast towards me, they listen to FR's, they listen to bug reports (especially by 3rd party devs), their general vibe is a bit more relaxed IMO. Though they can be a bit slow as well.
With Steinberg I constantly have the feeling, that they need to be purged or "reset" every 3-5 years in order to function again properly, drop down from their high horses. I mean... I am a f*cking paying customer, I invest a sh*tload of money in their tools and it takes them up to a month or several calls to the 0900 (1,30c/Min) phone line until they finally respond! Heck, I should have noted down the German-regular number to the support. I'd only call them through these channels!
I am being treated like a mindless idiot that has no rights whatsoever. I am only allowed to pay and STFU. Not cool IMO.
And while Presonus doesn't seem to be that fast or supportive towards their customer base once in a while either (looking at the web boards and the complaints), they at least DO something to keep their user base fairly happy and not constantly piss them off.
Reminds me of one of the many Lion and Jackal tales. Especially the one, where the Jackal mentions that he knows how to please the stronger Lion by only being happy with a smaller portion of the hunt. In turn, he kept all the positive benefits of being "friends" with a Lion.
Other companies can clearly learn from that...
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- KVRAF
- 6155 posts since 4 Dec, 2004
Yeah, that's what I meant, that it has a good array of included midi plugins like Beat Designer and a lot of other things.Cubase pretty much ignored "MIDI plugins" years ago. Barely any developer is going for it. So all you have left, are the MIDI plugins you have bundled with Cubase
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Arpache and Beat Designer are the ONLY TWO good things in terms of MIDI plugins bundled IMO (not counting the Logical Module!). Maybe also the randomizer. And Arpache has seen the end of the line with Kirnu and BlueARP, InsertPizHere offers way better MIDI tools as well.LawrenceF wrote:...it has a good array of included midi plugins like Beat Designer...
So... the initial concept was never really enhanced. Neither were the SYSEX panels (even for SYSEX wizards, it was a pain). And who uses the Drum Track in Cubase still?! I dropped it by Cubase VST5, but it would make so much sense to "custom name" certain keys in the key editor (think like "keyswitches", which is easier to handle since Cubase 5, or was it 6 with the new VST Expression system?)
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- KVRAF
- 2177 posts since 12 Nov, 2009
My Studio One installation is rock solid. Never had a DAW before that was so reliable. I remember Samplitude and Sonar crashing a lot. Studio One (64 Bit, Win Version) doesnt.
Honestly, i am happier than ever with this DAW. Thats also i reason why i do not posts in the offical forums anymore. There is no reason to do so, it just works.
Honestly, i am happier than ever with this DAW. Thats also i reason why i do not posts in the offical forums anymore. There is no reason to do so, it just works.
Finally!
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- KVRian
- 1051 posts since 31 Mar, 2012
On the Mac it crashes multiple times per day. Command-S becomes kind of automatic, though. So it doesn't bother me that much. But equating S1 and stability is laughable on the Mac.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
I remember similar happening on Mac with Logic and ProTools if you were using M-Audio modules. Chances are it's your ADC?
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- KVRian
- 1051 posts since 31 Mar, 2012
Nope, I'm mostly in the box.
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- KVRAF
- 14658 posts since 19 Oct, 2003 from Berlin, Germany
Again... Logic and ProTools had massive issues with M-Audio hardware, as in "audio modules", the thing you play back your content on or record. These are called ADC in short, or "Analog Digital Converter" in long form.
If you have issues with Studio One, chances are that your ADC/DAC might cause trouble with drivers or incompatibility, etc. Wouldn't be the first time I see this on a Macintosh. Which is why I brought it up in the first place.
If you have issues with Studio One, chances are that your ADC/DAC might cause trouble with drivers or incompatibility, etc. Wouldn't be the first time I see this on a Macintosh. Which is why I brought it up in the first place.
