Digital Performer 9 released

[Andywanders]

I'd be curious what you feel is lacking in DP that makes you say such a strong statement.

Thanks for your response Robert, and this deserves a reply. But please bear in mind that I only tried DP8 for about one week during down-time, and that was months ago, so this is based on memory. I'll try to be as objective as possible. Here goes.

Firstly, it's not so much about what's "lacking in DP", it's obviously a very mature and full-featured DAW and I'm sure if I had time to actually learn it, it would fulfil my needs. But therein lies the problem: the learning curve (and the instability). I just don't have the time.

Other problems I had with it are as follows:

1. VST Plugins - DP took about one hour to initially scan my VST plugins, and then it showed that most of them had "Failed". So then I manually went through the list and managed to get them "in" to DP with the exception of four-or-five plugins. This whole process took an afternoon, made worse by constant crashes. I'm not talking about buggy plugins either - all of them work 100% in other windows hosts that I've tried..

2. Workflow 1 - When I tried to load an instance of Kontakt I was presented with the following choices:

Kontakt (mono)
Kontakt (stereo)
Kontakt (mono)
Kontakt (stereo)
Kontakt (mono)
Kontakt (stereo)

There are in fact three versions of Kontakt based on the number of audio outs - 8 out, 16 out and 64 out. There is NO mono Kontakt. So which one do I choose? Not very apparent. Furthermore I noticed that all my VSTi Plugins were now suddenly mono or stereo - even those with multiple outs such as drum machines etc.

3. Workflow 2 - Trying to route multi-out plugins to individual audio channels was confusing, frustrating, long-winded and generally a PIA. The manual (1000 pages) didn't help much here either. It kept referring me to another section where instead of finding an explanation, I was referred to another section, and so-on. I eventually found out how to achieve this by searching on youtube.

4. Workflow 3 - I also had to search youtube to find out how to set up an effects bus. Again, the manual doesn't explain this (at least I couldn't find it), and it is far from intuitive just from using the program.

5. Workflow 4 - The GUI is very badly designed (again this is from memory). Some of the fonts are so tiny I couldn't read them - the column headers in the track list for example. Some of the buttons were not much larger than my mouse cursor. Simple operations like zooming in & out and creating a loop section were hard to find.

6. Stability Issues - DP8 on Windoze was a crash-fest here. I don't know about other users, but the only way I could get DP to run for more than 20 minutes was to just look at it and do nothing. Personally I think this is unacceptable from a company such as MOTU in the year 2015, especially when you consider the price.

I have a pretty well-specced Win 8.1 computer here with Studio One 2.6 (also V3 demo) and Reaper. I haven't experience one single crash with either of these, and only one crash with the demo of Samplitude which I tried last month. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky.

I deduce from your presence on this forum that you are very experienced and know your stuff. Let me assure you that I too am very experienced. I am primarily a songwriter/performer and I've been doing this for decades - from reel-to-reel in the 70s to DAWs in the present and everything in-between. I've used just about every major DAW on the planet in this time (with the exception of DP) and I stand by what I said about Logic - it beats DP in all areas. Of course this is just my opinion, but it's an opinion based on experience. Not trolling.

Furthermore, as a songwriter/performer I find it crucial to be able to get my ideas down quickly, without having to think about how to do it. In order for this to happen, the software has to be as transparent as possible. If it's not, it kills the moment and inspiration goes down the toilet.

My feeling is that if I had started using DP at version 1 and continued to grow with it, I'd probably be it's biggest champion right now. I recognise it's a very deep and capable program and I respect those that can get the best out of it. But in its current form, I don't think it will win over many new users (especially PC users) when you consider the competition.

Anyway, I think I've said enough (for now .

Respect to you Robert.

Cheers, Andy

[machinesworking]

@andy, a lot of your confusion seems to have been with bussing in DP, it's not hard, but like most DAWs it's not entirely intuitive. I've looked at Reaper a few times and hit that wall with it. I can't vouch for the PC version but in the mac version it's not an issue that the plug in says it's a stereo plug in, you can still route individual tracks from a drum machine etc.

AFA Logic is concerned, as an ex Logic user I would have to say both DAWs have some areas where they excel and fall flat. For instance Logic's Transform for MIDI etc. is not what I would call musician friendly, unless you're using one of it's presets. DP's included FX are better, Logic's included instruments are better. DP's automation is better, Logics MIDI event editor is better etc.

Until recently setting up a multi instrument in Logic was fun time party in the Environment.. I'm not sure where the stumbling block exactly was for you with multi instruments, but DP is really pretty easy that way IMO.

I cannot say much about the bad PC DP experience crash wise, I hope they clear up their issues that way, and I think it made the rest of the experience problematic. That said, I found Sonar confusing as hell, more so than Cubase, Logic, DP etc.

[crashedthecar]

I tried the dp8 demo and pretty much hated it at first but found it quite charming and in many ways elegant. I'll give it a twirl

[Andywanders]

@machinesworking: I hear you, and I can't argue with a thing you said. I guess it's just the way our individual brains work. Personally, I found everything in Logic to be, erm... "logical". Even the transform object. And when it comes to editing MIDI, well, Logic rules in that department. The way it handles sysex for external hardware is something I was very comfortable with, and I had no trouble with aux track objects and multi-out routing in Logic either. I remember in the Logic manual it said something like "the environment is the core", and it's true. It's all there. You don't have to wade through menus looking for stuff and checking options etc. You just build your environment and your done.

But for me the other issues I raised concerning DP are equally important - namely the GUI and the instability. These two alone are deal-breakers for me.

And I agree with you 100% about Sonar BTW

Cheers, Andy

[machinesworking]

@machinesworking: I hear you, and I can't argue with a thing you said. I guess it's just the way our individual brains work. Personally, I found everything in Logic to be, erm... "logical". Even the transform object. And when it comes to editing MIDI, well, Logic rules in that department. The way it handles sysex for external hardware is something I was very comfortable with, and I had no trouble with aux track objects and multi-out routing in Logic either. I remember in the Logic manual it said something like "the environment is the core", and it's true. It's all there. You don't have to wade through menus looking for stuff and checking options etc. You just build your environment and your done.

But for me the other issues I raised concerning DP are equally important - namely the GUI and the instability. These two alone are deal-breakers for me.

And I agree with you 100% about Sonar BTW

Cheers, Andy

Sure, but here's the v7 Logic way of multiple instruments. take a Midi object and wire it to the VI you want, as many times as you want. Compare that to DP with selecting the multi in the MIDI menu, I mean that's it, in DP the multi presents it's MIDI in straight off. Sure it's better now, but it wasn't what you would call intuitive since nearly every other DAW that allowed multiple MIDI tracks to a single Multi instrument worked like DP does.
SysEx is dead easy in DP BTW. Editable if you want to go there. Plus I would say that MIDI cc's in some ways are better behaved in DP than Logic, At least in Logic 8 drawing cc's could be an experiment in frustration. I did have a pretty cool 16 step analog style note, gate and cc style sequencer in the Environment though, it was a lot of fun.

The instability IMO should be worked out soon if 9 isn't addressing it. DP is easily the most stable DAW on my system besides Logic 4.7 with tested VSTs and a stripped down extension set that prevented any funny stuff.
The fonts are a problem, if you look at any other DAW they also have some fonts as small as DP's but not every single font in the interface. Has to be a GUI holdover from low resolution monitors.

Don't get me wrong I like Logic, my third favorite DAW after DP and Live, but

[Robert Randolph]

I'd be curious what you feel is lacking in DP that makes you say such a strong statement.

Thanks for your response Robert, and this deserves a reply. But please bear in mind that I only tried DP8 for about one week during down-time, and that was months ago, so this is based on memory. I'll try to be as objective as possible. Here goes.

Firstly, it's not so much about what's "lacking in DP", it's obviously a very mature and full-featured DAW and I'm sure if I had time to actually learn it, it would fulfil my needs. But therein lies the problem: the learning curve (and the instability). I just don't have the time.

Other problems I had with it are as follows:

1. VST Plugins - DP took about one hour to initially scan my VST plugins, and then it showed that most of them had "Failed". So then I manually went through the list and managed to get them "in" to DP with the exception of four-or-five plugins. This whole process took an afternoon, made worse by constant crashes. I'm not talking about buggy plugins either - all of them work 100% in other windows hosts that I've tried..

2. Workflow 1 - When I tried to load an instance of Kontakt I was presented with the following choices:

Kontakt (mono)
Kontakt (stereo)
Kontakt (mono)
Kontakt (stereo)
Kontakt (mono)
Kontakt (stereo)

There are in fact three versions of Kontakt based on the number of audio outs - 8 out, 16 out and 64 out. There is NO mono Kontakt. So which one do I choose? Not very apparent. Furthermore I noticed that all my VSTi Plugins were now suddenly mono or stereo - even those with multiple outs such as drum machines etc.

3. Workflow 2 - Trying to route multi-out plugins to individual audio channels was confusing, frustrating, long-winded and generally a PIA. The manual (1000 pages) didn't help much here either. It kept referring me to another section where instead of finding an explanation, I was referred to another section, and so-on. I eventually found out how to achieve this by searching on youtube.

4. Workflow 3 - I also had to search youtube to find out how to set up an effects bus. Again, the manual doesn't explain this (at least I couldn't find it), and it is far from intuitive just from using the program.

5. Workflow 4 - The GUI is very badly designed (again this is from memory). Some of the fonts are so tiny I couldn't read them - the column headers in the track list for example. Some of the buttons were not much larger than my mouse cursor. Simple operations like zooming in & out and creating a loop section were hard to find.

6. Stability Issues - DP8 on Windoze was a crash-fest here. I don't know about other users, but the only way I could get DP to run for more than 20 minutes was to just look at it and do nothing. Personally I think this is unacceptable from a company such as MOTU in the year 2015, especially when you consider the price.

I have a pretty well-specced Win 8.1 computer here with Studio One 2.6 (also V3 demo) and Reaper. I haven't experience one single crash with either of these, and only one crash with the demo of Samplitude which I tried last month. I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky.

I deduce from your presence on this forum that you are very experienced and know your stuff. Let me assure you that I too am very experienced. I am primarily a songwriter/performer and I've been doing this for decades - from reel-to-reel in the 70s to DAWs in the present and everything in-between. I've used just about every major DAW on the planet in this time (with the exception of DP) and I stand by what I said about Logic - it beats DP in all areas. Of course this is just my opinion, but it's an opinion based on experience. Not trolling.

Furthermore, as a songwriter/performer I find it crucial to be able to get my ideas down quickly, without having to think about how to do it. In order for this to happen, the software has to be as transparent as possible. If it's not, it kills the moment and inspiration goes down the toilet.

My feeling is that if I had started using DP at version 1 and continued to grow with it, I'd probably be it's biggest champion right now. I recognise it's a very deep and capable program and I respect those that can get the best out of it. But in its current form, I don't think it will win over many new users (especially PC users) when you consider the competition.

Anyway, I think I've said enough (for now .

Respect to you Robert.

Cheers, Andy

Very similar to my experiences with DP8.00 on Windows as far as crashing and plug-in issues. The Windows release was a total clusterfukerino.

Workflow #2 (and point1). DP offers mono, stereo, stereo->mono, mono->stereo versions of every plugin almost. It's part of the wrapper for vst->MAS. It is annoying, but I've alleviated this by creating my own effects categories with what I want/use frequently. It's rather quick to do, but I agree that it shouldn't be necessary.

Workflow #4 is totally true in DP8 on windows, and apparently with DP9 on windows for some systems. The fonts are totally messed up for some folks, and for others it's not. DP9 fixed it for me, DP8 is still awful on the same system.

A lot of the rest is just experience with the software, largely due to MOTU's weird way of naming things. Busses are done via 'bundles' (similar to PT), but you'd never know what to look for in the manual unless you already knew what to look for! Vexing! Same thing with 'soundbites' (regions, clips) and PureDSP (pitch and time stretching).

If I was primarily a Windows user, I definitely would not have hopped on the MOTU bandwagon with DP8. DP9 seems to be largely improved in this regard, but I've seen some people still having issues with tiny, misaligned and blurry fonts. If that happened to me, I still wouldn't be able to use it personally.

Another major thing is that I personally enjoy reading manuals. DP has one of, if not the best, DAW manuals written. I read it cover to cover before 'diving in'. That made a big difference for usability. It shouldn't be a necessity for someone to do this to appropriately use software of their choice though, and if you run headfirst in to DP without reading the manual it can be quite a pain. If you do read the manual first then I found it very pleasant to use compared to any other major DAW offering. This is one of those sort of things that you feel you shouldn't have to put so much work in to for it to "work", but if you do.. it does. It's a pain unless you enjoy reading like I do.

Regarding the manual though, I do think it's at least nice that it has a well-written manual. There are programs like Reaper that are far from intuitive and have very poorly written manuals. I'm sure everyone would like to have a program like S1 or (for some people) Logic, where it's fairly easy to jump in and figure out what you want. In my experience, this ease of use comes with lack of features though. S1 is missing a lot of things I use or need. Logic is pretty logical until I start trying to use more advanced features, then I'm back diving in to the manual.

All these things aside, as I have my own gripes with DP, for me I save a lot more time using the software than not. Chunks are a huge thing for me as they make trying out ideas, sequencing, organizing and cross-pollination way easier. POLAR is indispensable and has replaced over $1k worth of hardware loopers for me (which I use to try out ideas). Basic editing speed is only surpassed by PT's keyboard focus mode. "Clippings", which is like a global or project based 'anything clipboard' is really useful, and it includes startup items. The amp sims are fantastic. The 1176 and La2a models are up there with the best. Large project management (200+ tracks, 1000s of soundbites (regions)) is extremely good. The manual is fantastic. Lots of options for midi sequencing. And a big one... full sysex and nrpn support. Huge for me when working with old synths, newer high-end ones and various digital music hardware.

A lot of these things are important to me, and other DAWs just suck with them or don't have anything similar. There are plenty things of in DP that slow me down or that are annoying compared to using something else, and there will be in any DAW. It did have a learning curve but, I now have a net gain in overall speed and quality when working with DP.

edit: DP also has one thing no other DAW has: Magic Dave. That man has made buying and getting started with DP a joy. One of the best customer service/sales guys I've encountered in the DAW world.

[UncleAge]

Even though I am on OSX I had not seriously considered DP before. I saw this thread and decided to dig a little deeper since I currently have a little time off. Well that and the fact that I do work with video a bit and have wondered about the buzz around DP. After watching a few youtube vids about chunks I can say that one feature alone is going to make me demo the app. It appears to be a very well thought out solution. I have wondered for a long time why more hosts didn't have this type of functionality.

The only downside is that I had zero plans of making any new purchases for the rest of the year. Just upgrades. If I like it enough it will probably push S1 and Reaper out of the picture leaving me with a Usine-Live-DP setup.

The upside is that they are making an effort to support the Windows platform. I don't like having all my eggs in basket by depending too much on one OS. All of my stuff is multi-platform with exception of Numerology. I won't be adding anything that doesn't allow for an easy out.

So thanks for the info folks. It's been helpful.

[Numanoid]

After watching a few youtube vids about chunks I can say that one feature alone is going to make me demo the app. It appears to be a very well thought out solution. I have wondered for a long time why more hosts didn't have this type of functionality.

You can chunks function in DP8 as well, saw somebody puttin up a second hand license for sale the other day for 200 dollar

[Dewdman42]

DP is an awesome DAW and offers some features that no other DAW offers. If those features fit your work flow then its the one to use. I really like it. That being said, I think the upgrade price is kind of steep for what you get, I will probably wait until DP10 to upgrade for that reason. I would rather spend $200 to add Logic to my arsenal and get DP10 in a couple years. DP8 is working great for me, none of the listed new features are something I need enough to warrant $200 more.

[LawrenceF]

DP is not for everyone.

Nothing is. I think most developers tend to focus on their current customers, not so much the masses continually looking over the fence.

I never got on with the DP demo but it seems like a nice product. The scoring guys seem to love it.

[lfm]

edit: DP also has one thing no other DAW has: Magic Dave. That man has made buying and getting started with DP a joy. One of the best customer service/sales guys I've encountered in the DAW world.

Yes, he seems like a good guy - hope MOTU pays him well.
Gave me a second trial period with DP8 last christmas, nobody else did that.

Did first half size project(for me about 20 tracks) and used OMF.
So all that went well - all audio in place in minutes from Sonar.
Dragged midi clips to desktop, and then into DP - went well that too.

But drums were not starting on even bar, and this took 4 hours to figure out how to do. And only could do it in tracks view, these thin strips - since sequences are like inline midi editor - you loose all track of the clips, kind of.

Is there a way to have sequences showing clips, and not only individual midi events?
It's really enough to have midi in the editor.



Things that are hotties in DP for me:
a) metronome clicks - you can design these as any drum click out there. Really flexible. Nobody put as much effort into this as DP.
b) nested track folders, that also can have busses put into them - all in one place.
You can work towards stems on top level.
c) Solo exempt - simple sticky property that mark tracks not being muted by solo on other tracks.
d) chunks - use them like arranger tracks in Cubase or StudioOne.
I usually end up making longer intros, or extra bridges etc late in the process.
e) highly customizable, with themes, colors and what info you want accessible in different situations.
f) notation is well integrated and seems good enough for my purpose
g) mix modes - a mix recall thing like Sonar has, covers plugins and automation etc.

Things I'm still struggling with after two days:
To get selections of parts I want to work with - I do some operation and then select must be made over again.
Found no way to make selection groups of clips or to merge clips into one - there must be a way.
Poor guides when you move clips - you have no idea how far you moved until you release mouse.
Spent a lot of time trying simple things like changing grid snap resolution to something else but bars - never succeded. The only place you work with full clips you cannot do it, it seems, you have to use floating drag with Ctrl down. You can in sequence view, but then midi is all events details, not clips. Really odd.

If I cannot get these things smooth - I will loose more than I gain from using DP.
Even Cubase looks intuitive compared to this - but I find Sonar is hard to beat still.
And I can subscribe to Sonar Artist for 8 years for the same money - and will most likely have it all there too by then.

But will do the book worm thingy - and spend time reading DP manual front to back tomorrow. There are large amounts of settings regarding workflow, so it might be a configuration thing.

[Robert Randolph]

edit: DP also has one thing no other DAW has: Magic Dave. That man has made buying and getting started with DP a joy. One of the best customer service/sales guys I've encountered in the DAW world.

Yes, he seems like a good guy - hope MOTU pays him well.
Gave me a second trial period with DP8 last christmas, nobody else did that.

Did first half size project(for me about 20 tracks) and used OMF.
So all that went well - all audio in place in minutes from Sonar.
Dragged midi clips to desktop, and then into DP - went well that too.

But drums were not starting on even bar, and this took 4 hours to figure out how to do. And only could do it in tracks view, these thin strips - since sequences are like inline midi editor - you loose all track of the clips, kind of.

Is there a way to have sequences showing clips, and not only individual midi events?
It's really enough to have midi in the editor.



Things that are hotties in DP for me:
a) metronome clicks - you can design these as any drum click out there. Really flexible. Nobody put as much effort into this as DP.
b) nested track folders, that also can have busses put into them - all in one place.
You can work towards stems on top level.
c) Solo exempt - simple sticky property that mark tracks not being muted by solo on other tracks.
d) chunks - use them like arranger tracks in Cubase or StudioOne.
I usually end up making longer intros, or extra bridges etc late in the process.
e) highly customizable, with themes, colors and what info you want accessible in different situations.
f) notation is well integrated and seems good enough for my purpose
g) mix modes - a mix recall thing like Sonar has, covers plugins and automation etc.

Things I'm still struggling with after two days:
To get selections of parts I want to work with - I do some operation and then select must be made over again.
Found no way to make selection groups of clips or to merge clips into one - there must be a way.
Poor guides when you move clips - you have no idea how far you moved until you release mouse.
Spent a lot of time trying simple things like changing grid snap resolution to something else but bars - never succeded. The only place you work with full clips you cannot do it, it seems, you have to use floating drag with Ctrl down. You can in sequence view, but then midi is all events details, not clips. Really odd.

If I cannot get these things smooth - I will loose more than I gain from using DP.
Even Cubase looks intuitive compared to this - but I find Sonar is hard to beat still.
And I can subscribe to Sonar Artist for 8 years for the same money - and will most likely have it all there too by then.

But will do the book worm thingy - and spend time reading DP manual front to back tomorrow. There are large amounts of settings regarding workflow, so it might be a configuration thing.

DP does not have midi clips. A lot of people want it, however there is a workflow that makes this easier to deal with, and many people find it superior. (I personally do not).

I strongly suggest reading this thread: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=59442 There's lots of useful info there.

This should help you with your part selection as well. Make sure you use the 'search' feature as well, it's an amazing tool for creating selections.

I'm in somewhat of a hurry now, so if you have more questions after I can help more. Hopefully this has been enough to give you a bit of a kick start.

[lfm]

DP does not have midi clips. A lot of people want it, however there is a workflow that makes this easier to deal with, and many people find it superior. (I personally do not).

I strongly suggest reading this thread: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 26&t=59442 There's lots of useful info there.

This should help you with your part selection as well. Make sure you use the 'search' feature as well, it's an amazing tool for creating selections.

I'm in somewhat of a hurry now, so if you have more questions after I can help more. Hopefully this has been enough to give you a bit of a kick start.

Much obliged, thanks.

But there is something very illogical about having midi treated so different from audio. An audio take is kept as an entity - but midi not, it becomes individual notes.

They exist as a container clip in tracks overview, but that track is 15-20 pixels high.

I looked at a video for loop recording and comping - for audio - looking very smooth.

Looking for similar how that works for midi?

Some daws introduced inline midi editing along with audio tracks as a complement to midi editor. But there's a good reason they did not remove the natural part as a clip - other daws expanded on that even, making selection groups and glue/merging operations for those. Midi editor/PRV cover the details for one or many clips.

I feel that Shooshie is arguing against himself even, that containers are crap and then wanting these saved selections/regions. That is exactly what clips are - and easy to split and combine etc.

And Shooshie's own examples and tuts are 10 years old in that thread, so I gather something must have improved since then.

But not giving up yet - there are so many good things in there...

[Robert Randolph]

Make sure you look at saving selections as well. That is how I deal with moving midi sections around personally, and it is quite flexible.

A lot of people want midi clips in DP, there's no doubt about that, However, I have worked on midi hardware for ~20 years that didn't have any sort of 'clip' and I did quite well, so I can't complain too much. That isn't to say that I wouldn't mind some modern concepts implemented in my host of choice too Midi clips are definitely a great concept.

For looping midi, you do it the same as audio (assuming you're not using POLAR). You can also use step recording which is very useful for some passages.

[lfm]

For looping midi, you do it the same as audio (assuming you're not using POLAR). You can also use step recording which is very useful for some passages.

Thanks again.

Yes, I found in manual that takes are supposed to work for any track type, it's just comping of takes that is audio only, meaning portions of takes combined into a new one with that splendid action I saw in a video - not there for midi.

So that loop recording and takes itself works for DP9 is most important.
As I understand from a motunation post in aug 2014 - it was not there in DP8, and a lot of suggestions for midi pedals etc to step to next take etc. A bit strange they mention muting midi events as new, but not takes handling.

Manual read continues...