Vienna Ensemble alternative?

[hollyWorse]

Vienna Ensemble is not about an orchestral library. It's a VST server that you can run on an external machine which hosts your CPU-eating VST instruments. Then you can insert those instruments over network into your DAW.

Is there a cheaper / free alternative to Vienna Ensemble? Some guys mention Reaper can do it to somehow. But can Reaper be a VST server and I can use my regular DAW (e.g. Cubase, Live, Logic, Sonar, ...) in combination?

Another thing I want to try, just because I can: I want to test running a setup like this over the internet. I once read about the idea of making an Amazon Web Service VST server of which you can launch multiple instances on demand. Yeah that's probably gonna be more a proof-of-concept (or disproof) but it's for fun and for testing the limits. Not for a serious application in mind. I know one problem will be licences if you want to run multiple instances but for starters I can use free plugins and some of my paid plugins support multiple licences.

[Rockatansky]

Yup, Reaper can do it. I haven't tried it in something like 6 or 7 years, but it did work back then and it should still work today.
http://wiki.cockos.com/wiki/index.php/ReaMote

I don't know about the Internet thing.

[hollyWorse]

Yup, Reaper can do it.

Yeah but what about "Reaper as server, other DAW as client"?

[koalaboy]

Steinberg has https://www.steinberg.net/en/products/v ... t_pro.html
(Cubase has VST System Link built in, I think)

For free there is: http://www.fx-max.com/fxt/
(they went out of business but have activation codes linked from the front page)

Also no longer maintained: https://code.google.com/archive/p/wormhole2/

Finally, there is this, which seems to almost be doing what you were thinking about: https://www.dawconnect.com/

[Muziksculp]

I don't think there is anything as solid, efficient, and flexible, that works as great as VE-Pro on multi platforms.

[thebutler]

The Steinberg product (VST Connect Pro) linked to in a post above is more a 'remote collaboration' type tool - could be useful, but not what I think's being sought here, if I'm understanding correctly. However 'VST System Link', also mentioned, is more the right tool needed for the situation.

Two main caveats:
1. You will need separate instances of Cubase installed on each machine (though, one could be the cheaper 'Elements' edition of course).
2. You need the same audio hardware interface at each end and they must have digital (S/PDIF type) connections; this is the primary communication protocol for VST System Link to work.

That second point has killed it from becoming more widely used/useful. Shame.

What went with it was the wonderful VSTack - a standalone VSTi hosting 'rack' piece of software you could run on the second machine (early Plugin-Chainer or VE-Pro..?). Abandonware now of course.
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/v-stack-by-steinberg

But, hey - the world has moved on...

Cheers,
thebutler

For background, some more info:-
https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support ... k-vsl.html

[ZapAxe]

The Steinberg product (VST Connect Pro) linked to in a post above is more a 'remote collaboration' type tool - could be useful, but not what I think's being sought here, if I'm understanding correctly. However 'VST System Link', also mentioned, is more the right tool needed for the situation.

Two main caveats:
1. You will need separate instances of Cubase installed on each machine (though, one could be the cheaper 'Elements' edition of course).
2. You need the same audio hardware interface at each end and they must have digital (S/PDIF type) connections; this is the primary communication protocol for VST System Link to work.

That second point has killed it from becoming more widely used/useful. Shame.

What went with it was the wonderful VSTack - a standalone VSTi hosting 'rack' piece of software you could run on the second machine (early Plugin-Chainer or VE-Pro..?). Abandonware now of course.
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/v-stack-by-steinberg

But, hey - the world has moved on...

Cheers,
thebutler

For background, some more info:-
https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support ... k-vsl.html

Though in some cases it may be a safe bet, you do not absolutely need the same audio hardware on each computer, I use VST System Link (VSL) with completely different audio interface brands on my computers. I happen to be using it with coaxial s/pdif and it works very well. I think the main issue is that the interface be compatible with VSL in the 1st place.
You do need an audio interface with the same 'type' of connections (ie; coaxial s/pdif, ADAT etc, etc). Having to have an audio interface on each computer, nor is having to have whatever version Cubase installed on each computer is definitely not a deal breaker. Any Cubase version from SX on works as a Slave OR a Master mode. Cubase VST 5 (with it's last update) is where VSL began, but that version only works as a Slave). You can use 2-channel digital audio connections, or multi-channel digital audio.
You do not need the latest & most expensive flagship version of Cubase for extra slaves, you can pick up used or even new Elements versions inexpensively, and use a higher version for your Master computer if wanted. If 64 bit versions of Cubase is desired, I think Steinber started 64 bit versions with either version 4 or version 5? (version 5 for sure).

One great thing about VST System Link (VSL) over Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP) is that with System Link you can literally do anything you want on each computer ... more audio tracks, more midi tracks, more Instrument Tracks, more effects. You can also spread things out in any way you want among the computers...only audio tracks on one, only VSTis on another, etc. You can do any combination of the above, and is only limited to your imagination.
VSL also allows multiple users of multiple computers to collaborate on a project together. Any computers transports can operate all other computers in the VSL network...yes I said "network" but not Ethernet network.

To the OP, regarding the question of using Kontakt on one selected slave computer, and whether it can be accessed by all users at the same time...as I mentioned above, when one user presses transports, play/stop etc on their computer, the computer with Kontakt loaded will also play. In addition, it 'should' be possible to route midi and even multiple midi channels from whichever users computer, into the computer loaded with Kontakt simultaneously.

[thebutler]

The Steinberg product (VST Connect Pro) linked to in a post above is more a 'remote collaboration' type tool - could be useful, but not what I think's being sought here, if I'm understanding correctly. However 'VST System Link', also mentioned, is more the right tool needed for the situation.

Two main caveats:
1. You will need separate instances of Cubase installed on each machine (though, one could be the cheaper 'Elements' edition of course).
2. You need the same audio hardware interface at each end and they must have digital (S/PDIF type) connections; this is the primary communication protocol for VST System Link to work.

That second point has killed it from becoming more widely used/useful. Shame.

What went with it was the wonderful VSTack - a standalone VSTi hosting 'rack' piece of software you could run on the second machine (early Plugin-Chainer or VE-Pro..?). Abandonware now of course.
https://www.kvraudio.com/product/v-stack-by-steinberg

But, hey - the world has moved on...

Cheers,
thebutler

For background, some more info:-
https://www.steinberg.net/nc/en/support ... k-vsl.html

Though in some cases it may be a safe bet, you do not absolutely need the same audio hardware on each computer, I use VST System Link (VSL) with completely different audio interface brands on my computers. I happen to be using it with coaxial s/pdif and it works very well. I think the main issue is that the interface be compatible with VSL in the 1st place.
You do need an audio interface with the same 'type' of connections (ie; coaxial s/pdif, ADAT etc, etc). Having to have an audio interface on each computer, nor is having to have whatever version Cubase installed on each computer is definitely not a deal breaker. Any Cubase version from SX on works as a Slave OR a Master mode. Cubase VST 5 (with it's last update) is where VSL began, but that version only works as a Slave). You can use 2-channel digital audio connections, or multi-channel digital audio.
You do not need the latest & most expensive flagship version of Cubase for extra slaves, you can pick up used or even new Elements versions inexpensively, and use a higher version for your Master computer if wanted. If 64 bit versions of Cubase is desired, I think Steinber started 64 bit versions with either version 4 or version 5? (version 5 for sure).

One great thing about VST System Link (VSL) over Vienna Ensemble Pro (VEP) is that with System Link you can literally do anything you want on each computer ... more audio tracks, more midi tracks, more Instrument Tracks, more effects. You can also spread things out in any way you want among the computers...only audio tracks on one, only VSTis on another, etc. You can do any combination of the above, and is only limited to your imagination.
VSL also allows multiple users of multiple computers to collaborate on a project together. Any computers transports can operate all other computers in the VSL network...yes I said "network" but not Ethernet network.

Ah.! Ok, that's interesting - thanks for clarifying about the audio interface not needing to be the (exact) same, but must at least have the same 'type' of connection.

Still a little bit of a barrier though, since most consumer/semi-pro interfaces released for the past several years don't know anything about digital s/pdif or ADAT for example. I don't know about USB being sufficient (there's usually only one physical connection anyway), or Thunderbolt connections, in a 'daisy-chain' setup.

So, unless owning a suitable candidate already (like you had), I can imagine (most) folk needing to re-equip themselves with two interfaces that could talk to each other, if they were to try and take advantage... Not going to happen.

Also, I did state about being able to have 'Elements' as one of the other (slave) installs, as a cheaper option. But you expanded on that better than I did...

VSL was/is a pretty powerful tool - it so quickly went off the radar though; folk were being told they could get more done on the same machine anyway, as CPU's got more potent and RAM prices dropped. Which to an extent was all quite true. Little did we know, that DAW's would become more bloated (inefficient), and VSTi's would get hungrier for more and more resources... its quickly realised, spreading the load across multiple machines is the only way of having masses of libraries and instruments/sounds ready to rock as the moment takes you...

thebutler

[thebutler]

And then, I just noticed this thread, with this setup from JunkieXL...
viewtopic.php?p=6835126#p6835126

[ZapAxe]

Ah.! Ok, that's interesting - thanks for clarifying about the audio interface not needing to be the (exact) same, but must at least have the same 'type' of connection.

Still a little bit of a barrier though, since most consumer/semi-pro interfaces released for the past several years don't know anything about digital s/pdif or ADAT for example. I don't know about USB being sufficient (there's usually only one physical connection anyway), or Thunderbolt connections, in a 'daisy-chain' setup.

So, unless owning a suitable candidate already (like you had), I can imagine (most) folk needing to re-equip themselves with two interfaces that could talk to each other, if they were to try and take advantage... Not going to happen.

Also, I did state about being able to have 'Elements' as one of the other (slave) installs, as a cheaper option. But you expanded on that better than I did...

VSL was/is a pretty powerful tool - it so quickly went off the radar though; folk were being told they could get more done on the same machine anyway, as CPU's got more potent and RAM prices dropped. Which to an extent was all quite true. Little did we know, that DAW's would become more bloated (inefficient), and VSTi's would get hungrier for more and more resources... its quickly realised, spreading the load across multiple machines is the only way of having masses of libraries and instruments/sounds ready to rock as the moment takes you...

thebutler

Steinberg may have recommended using the same audio interfaces with VSL. I think this was just being 'safe' for compatibility. I was using the same audio interfaces myself at 1st, but I've since realized otherwise. Granted, having the same interfaces makes it easier to set up, and less confusing when working with multiple systems.
As long as the interface has decent digital audio connections, and at least decent written ASIO-2 drivers it should work. I've never seriously used a USB interface, but I do know firewire interfaces work well.
Stenberg had also recommended using the same 'series of a version' such as Cubase 8 Pro on a master, with say Cubase Artist 8/Elements 8 on a slave(s). Once again, I've experienced otherwise among series versions. It doesn't even matter if you're running 64 bit on one computer and 32 bit on other computer.

Yeah it's a shame that VSL seems to have went off the radar for the masses I agree, I imagine a major part is because it's a proprietary solution for Steinberg Cubase/Nuendo users only, and partly because everyone wants to jump on the Ethernet bandwagon. Plus, not everyone is a power user, with a need of multiple systems since 64 bit muti-core & gobs of ram computers are the norm.
"Two suitable interfaces" ... there are many people who would be apprehensive, or completely unwilling to change their audio interfaces if they're not appropriate for VSL. For those unwilling to make the attempt, you're out. Most decent full-featured interfaces over the last several years, having some kind of digital connection will likely work.
I never understood the opposition to having an interface on each computer..most people would only need a 2nd computer anyway. Another opposition is that people don't want to get a 2nd Cubase copy, even though you can get an entry level/used copy for cheap. Yet are willing to pay a high cost of VEP, which is about as much as full Cubase Pro 64 bit.
Yet another opposition to VSL is that some will claim they want to work in only ONE computer, yet with VEP you're not working with one computer either, you still have to set stuff up on each system.

True about so called newer more powerful systems are being taxes even more these days. Even many current super heavy users are in need of more resources.

The benefit I like about VSL, is that you can do everything on multiple computers that you can do on one...more audio tracks, more FX's more VSTi's etc. Plus, there's redundancy.

[ghettosynth]

Yeah it's a shame that VSL seems to have went off the radar for the masses I agree, I imagine a major part is because it's a proprietary solution for Steinberg Cubase/Nuendo users only, and partly because everyone wants to jump on the Ethernet bandwagon.

Even if we disregard the expense of ADAT/SPDIF systems and the complexity of setting up VSL, Ethernet still has a huge advantage. I have all of the required stuff for VSL several times over. I can use ADAT or SPDIF across multiple systems. The big problem for a lot of people, and certainly this is my issue, is the max cable length of the digital interconnects.

I can throw a pencil off my upstairs balcony and hit my downstairs computer with pretty good repeatability, yet, that is too far for ADAT even given that I use the max length of reliable firewire connections and place the interfaces as close as possible. It's not really too far for SPDIF but you do have to use fairly high quality coax. However, SPDIF is limited in terms of the number of channels. That said, it is too far to run the SPDIF cable in a pleasing way so even that isn't a solution.

[thebutler]

More good points.! Good discussion...

@ZapAxe - I have to ask; did you ever get to try out SB's 'VSTack' software rack host..?

@ghettosynth - that's something I would never have considered but is obviously a big factor for some folk - distance between machines..! Very interesting...

[ZapAxe]

Yeah it's a shame that VSL seems to have went off the radar for the masses I agree, I imagine a major part is because it's a proprietary solution for Steinberg Cubase/Nuendo users only, and partly because everyone wants to jump on the Ethernet bandwagon.

Even if we disregard the expense of ADAT/SPDIF systems and the complexity of setting up VSL, Ethernet still has a huge advantage. I have all of the required stuff for VSL several times over. I can use ADAT or SPDIF across multiple systems. The big problem for a lot of people, and certainly this is my issue, is the max cable length of the digital interconnects.

I can throw a pencil off my upstairs balcony and hit my downstairs computer with pretty good repeatability, yet, that is too far for ADAT even given that I use the max length of reliable firewire connections and place the interfaces as close as possible. It's not really too far for SPDIF but you do have to use fairly high quality coax. However, SPDIF is limited in terms of the number of channels. That said, it is too far to run the SPDIF cable in a pleasing way so even that isn't a solution.

I don't run a pro studio, and most of my audio interfaces were bought used for less than $100 each when they originally sold new from between $700-$1,200 and are all full featured interfaces. I specifically bought extra for running VST System Link. I consider that cost negligible considering what it does for me.

As for the max cable lengths of digital audio, if extremely long runs are required, that may an issue against using VSL in such cases. I don't know the max cable lengths for every digital cable off hand, but I've read some can be as long as over 500 ft(?). Maybe there's some sort of booster than is available.

I use coaxial s/pdif and all runs are short. Digital stereo works fine because I don't require multi-channel audio between my PC's. Each PC - whether a dedicated VSTi PC or dedicated audio PC - only needs to provide a stereo sub-mix. Being every computer is my VSL network is full-DAW capable, I can run anything I want in each. I record my midi directly into my VSTi PC, and always run FX's locally for ease. Without the need to send midi, FX's and multiple audio tracks among systems, it's very simple actually.

[ZapAxe]

@ZapAxe - I have to ask; did you ever get to try out SB's 'VSTack' software rack host..?

Yes, I tried it some years back and it seemed to work good at 1st, but started crashing on me beyond a hand full of VSTi's. The same thing happened to me with using FX-Max FX-teleport, crashes when using more than a handful of VSTi's. That may have been because I was using the on-board Ethernet instead of a good PCI add-on card. Not to say that it's a shame Steinberg didn't stick with further developing V-Stack, it was a great idea. Maybe they dropped it because of the low cost entry-level Cubase versions available, one could always just use that, which does much more that simply run VSTi's from.
Using Ethernet seemed to overly tax my tax my systems resources. I guess this is why I'm not a fan of using Ethernet solutions, and I always disable all Ethernet capability on my DAW PC's, as well as disabling any on-board audio & wireless capabilities.

Actually, I found that old school audio/midi sound card networking far outperformed FX-Teleport & V-Stack. While FXT & V-Stack allowed me to run only about 8-10 or so VSTi's before audio breaking up, crashing etc, I could run about 32 VSTi's or more with audio/midi sound card networking, all with Win XP. Audio/midi networking is great, as long as you figure out how to properly use the midi transformer with the Cubase slave computer. Which brings to mind, that System Link is even easier to use than audio/midi sound card networking, and VSL allows me to so much more.

Of course, VSL is not for everyone. You have to be a Steinberg product user to start. The cost can actually be fairly inexpensive if you buy extra interfaces, used or entry level Cubase, and even a computer used as I've done. Then again, no one method is for everyone either.

[SJ_Digriz]

Of course, VSL is not for everyone. You have to be a Steinberg product user to start. The cost can actually be fairly inexpensive if you buy extra interfaces, used or entry level Cubase, and even a computer used as I've done.

Did you mistype? VSL doesn't require you to be a Steinberg product user. You do have to use the eLicenser. But, you don't have to own any Steinberg products. It is expensive, but it is far more than just a vehicle to communicate between multiple computers. The instance management and configuration choices for instances are beyond any of the other solutions recommended. However, you are right that it is expensive.