Getting started in electronic music production (with hard synths)

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Please pardon the interruption...

Thank you VORT3X! I learned more from your post than I have in a months of researching. Really informative and in laymen's terms. I feel like you gave me an excellent overview understanding of nuts-and-bolts synthesis..

Really, thank you.
-Ed
Gaslighting...is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.

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EdSevered wrote:Please pardon the interruption...

Thank you VORT3X! I learned more from your post than I have in a months of researching. Really informative and in laymen's terms. I feel like you gave me an excellent overview understanding of nuts-and-bolts synthesis..

Really, thank you.
-Ed
He did indeed. Hope the OP appreciates the amount of info he put in there.
my other modular synth is a bugbrand

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Also if you are learning synthesis check out www.syntorial.com the fastest way to learn to program your own sounds. Highly recomended, and I would say It would be great you do it before getting a hardware synth, that way you will be able to have better judgement on what you want to pick.
dedication to flying

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NOTE: Since I am new here, I have gotten many spam alerts. So this post is about a day old, and I can't change it. Sorry if the information I say has already been covered.

Woah, that is a lot of information you all gave me. Thank you for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it. VORT3X, Thank you so much.

So, starting from the beginning, using software synthesizers. I see where you're coming from. It is a little cheaper, and you can apply what you learned in software synthesis to hardware synthesis. But, I would still like to use a hard synth. I am a very tactile person, and I learn more by touching and seeing things, if that makes any sense.

But hard synths do get expensive. I mean, I don't have $1000+ to spend on a synthesizer. I think it would be good to go with a cheaper synth, like one that is about $300-500. Just enough for me to start out.

Now, you mentioned Modular synthesis. I like that idea, but I don't know how far I can get with $450. I know I will have more $$$ over time, but I read a little article saying you would have to buy a decent amount of... oscillator's? Or all those parts that make a rack. You would need a lot of those just to make a sound, but you said you could buy one every month or so, but is that worth it to wait? I think modular synthesis would be awesome. But I wouldn't know how to start off decently.

But back to synths, I was thinking of the Korg MS-20 mini or the Korg minilogue. Or, I could use reaktor 6 to practice modular synthesis with, or I was thinking of the Korg Volca. However, I heard the Korg Volca is a groovebox, which is meant more for live performances? But it still could be used for production use.

I think I want to stick with a polyphonic synth, but the Korg MS-20 mini is monophonic. I know I want to play chord progressions and many notes, so I think I better stay in the polyphonic synth area.

Thank you all once again for helping me out.

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rod_zero wrote:Also if you are learning synthesis check out http://www.syntorial.com the fastest way to learn to program your own sounds. Highly recomended, and I would say It would be great you do it before getting a hardware synth, that way you will be able to have better judgement on what you want to pick.
Loaded Syntorial on my iPad, looks cool, signed up for their newsletter, and am waiting for the their next sale. Hope it comes soon.

OK, thread high-jack over. Control now returned to your originally scheduled thread.
Gaslighting...is a form of mental abuse in which information is twisted or spun, selectively omitted to favor the abuser, or false information is presented with the intent of making victims doubt their own memory, perception, and sanity.

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If your budget is $400, forget hardware, and go software. Even then, it will be quite short, and you'd have to consider what to buy really.

I take it you have some decent speakers, and audio interface? If not, i'd get that first before even thinking about anything else.

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Go with your gut. If you want hardware go with hardware. You might blow all your money on a few softsynths and be totally stuck if hardware is what you really want. If you chose to go software don't even think about spending any money until you've learnt a thing or two about what you want to achieve - there's so much great free software right now. SQ8L and Martin Luder's PG8X are both near indistinguishable from their hardware counterparts in terms of sound for instance - both free and better sounding than anything payware imo.
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chk071 wrote:If your budget is $400, forget hardware, and go software. Even then, it will be quite short, and you'd have to consider what to buy really.
Just bad advice for a beginner. A beginner should be encouraged not to spend any money - especially with the amount of incredible free software out there right now.
Mastering from £30 per track \\\
Facebook \\\ #masteredbyloz

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Well, i took it he'd want to spend some money if he says his budget is $400, but, true, for a total beginner, it'd be the best to first try freeware.

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EdSevered wrote:Please pardon the interruption...

Thank you VORT3X! I learned more from your post than I have in a months of researching. Really informative and in laymen's terms. I feel like you gave me an excellent overview understanding of nuts-and-bolts synthesis..

Really, thank you.
-Ed
Hey no problem!
saplingmusic wrote:NOTE: Since I am new here, I have gotten many spam alerts. So this post is about a day old, and I can't change it. Sorry if the information I say has already been covered.

Woah, that is a lot of information you all gave me. Thank you for taking the time to respond, I really appreciate it. VORT3X, Thank you so much.
Hey NP man, I remember not knowing anything about synthesizers. I actually figured I'd never be able to figure this stuff out, but i eventually did. :lol:

Also when you're starting out make sure you first have a decent set of speakers (Studio grade monitors) and a decent interface. Eventually once you learn your synthesizers, you'll want to learn how to mix them together into a nice sounding song. I won't get into acoustics here, but they are super important when you are doing sound design.

I also would highly recommend you buy a good Midi controller and go software for now. Software can tide you over until you save up the dough for a decent hardware synthesizer. I've personally been eyeballing the Akai Advance keyboards because they work out of the box with so many popular plugins. I also like the hardware style workflow without too much fiddling on a computer screen.

A midi keyboard like the Akai Advance might not be quite as customized as a dedicated synthesizer control system, but it's still useful. However if you want the true hardware stlye experience, you can often find custom built midi controllers for software emulations which mimic the original hardwares functionality.

Here are a few examples of some dedicated controllers for plugins.

http://sound-force.nl/?page_id=1514

Buying these will give you that hardware experience, minus the headache of having to record and sync your audio with a real one.

BTW I highly recommend you check out the Elektron Analog stuff, as it gives you basically the best of both worlds in Analog synthesis. It lets you use DAW control of the hardware (using overbridge) if you want, or you can just make a entire track inside the device using it's sequencer system and no computer. The downside to the latter is that you will have to learn that particular sequencing system to get the best out of it. I figure the Value for money in Elektron stuff is very high and the best thing is later if you do decide to buy a modular you can use your Elektron sequencer to drive it.

IF you decide to get modular, you might be best off first learning about modular synthesis using Reaktor 6 blocks. Then once you understand the concepts behind this, then hit up this website https://www.modulargrid.net/e/modules/home and start doing a bit of research on modular gear. For starting out and instant gratification you might start with a Synth voice module as your first module in your Modular rack. This can tide you over until you buy more exotic modules.

Also stick to Eurorack since you get more Value for your money.

IF I was starting out from scratch i would have done this.

Step 1 - Buy a decent laptop or computer (Quad i7 minimum w/8GB ram and a SSD)

Step 2 - Get a decent pair of portable studio headphones (KRK-KNS8400, Focal Spirit Pro)

Step 3 - Buy a DAW & Midi Keyboard (Akai Advance, NI Kontrol S, Roland)

Step 4 - Get a Nice Studio Interface (RME Babyface, Apogee Duet )

Step 5 - Save up and get a nice pair of Studio monitors for proper mixdowns (Focal Alpha80 & monitor stands)

Step 6 - Buy my first hardware synthesizer (Elektron Analog Keys)

Step 7 - Buy Eurorack case w/ 2 racks and 84HP of space and a power supply.

Step 8 - I personally know what I want, and I've already researched enough to know I'd be happy with the following modular setup. Makenoise offers a lot of bang for the buck, and I'm really into westcoast (Buchla & Serge) style stuff.

My Ideal Eurorack build
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I have a bit more to talk about on the hardware vs software workflow too.

HARDWARE PROS
- Your computer does not to do ANY processing to create the sound! This will free up your CPU for sequencing and mixing duties. Once you record your stuff to audio, the only CPU you need out of the entire process is really for the playback of the audio and whatever effects you apply to it.

- You don't have to buy continuous upgrades just to get the best out of it

- Analog Synthesis is the real deal so you won't hear aliasing and can record the Audio at the highest sample rate you want for SUPERB quality.

- It looks freaking cool in your studio. I mean people will think you're serious about being an electronic musician if you have a bunch of sweet gear right? This is usually the attitude I see with hardware in general. ;)

- Hands on dedicated tactile control for each synth or piece of hardware.

- Some Hardware manufacturers offer dedicated Plugin control which let you make changes to it via your DAW much like a software plugin. This is ONLY if they support it though. (Elektron, DSI, Moog all do this I believe)

- Hardware often is very stable upon release, and so in many cases it is usually ROCK solid. You don't have to worry about bugs etc, and if you do then they get fixed pretty quickly. This is great for live performances!

- For some things the workflow can be quick once you are used to it.

- You can track your audio through all your fancy CPU using FX Plugins without worrying the hardware is going to suck up your CPU.

- No stupid copy protection

HARDWARE CONS

- Hardware is prone to interference from other devices.

- Hardware requires electricity, electricity requires more money.

- Hardware can make heat, so if you are running lots of it, you'll find your room will heat up. This can be bad if you don't have a cool place to work, because too much heat can mess with your hardware.

- You are limited by the limitations of the Midi system which is quite old. Some modern hardware synthesizers use plugins which help get around this.

- You can get SYNC issues with your DAW which often need manual correction.

- It is prone to physical damage, power surges from lighting storms, spilling drinks etc

- It's expensive

- Parts eventually need repairs, and repairs can be expensive.

- It's not that portable if you need to move around lots.

- You need space for your studio stuff.

- The Workflow might not be fast enough for some people who are used to a computer.

- When you load up a old song you made, you might not be able to get complete recall of all your changes if your
hardware lacks a modern patch based system.

- On the older systems you need to basically memorize performances of your knob changes for a song as there is no
way to save these changes.

- Not everyone offers plugin control of their hardware

- Digital HW Synthesizers can still cause aliasing problems because of there internal sampling output, but most
modern systems run at 96khz or higher which is more than sufficient.




SOFTWARE PROS

- It's a very minimalist approach, so if you are short on space then this is great!

- Some Copy protections are super lenient (Serial based)

- Most Modern DAWS are pretty stable and mature in development.

- The good value for money factor is high with software

- You are fully portable (Great for live shows etc) Just take your laptop or computer.

- You can often run as many instances of a synthesizer or effect as your computer can handle.

- Total Recall is fully supported. This means you can load up a song you did 10 years ago and it will playback pretty much the same unless your DAW version affects this.

- You get TOTAL access to all the controls via Parameter automation and can control them all with your DAWs automation system. This can lead to super crazy changes and almost microscopic control over all the details in your song.

- You can find 2nd hand pricing on KVR market place and save money.

- Modern DSP techniques have caught up and even surpassed what many current digital hardware synthesizers offer. This means the Access Virus Ti, Nords etc aren't exactly so special sound wise.

- You can use DSP farms if you need more CPU using plugin systems like http://www.vsl.co.at/en/Vienna_Software ... semble_PRO


SOFTWARE CONS *DSP = Digital Signal Processing

- Big screens can be a problem with developers who don't put in GUI resizing. This means you'll need a magnifying glass to see some stuff until they fix it, especially on MAC retina displays. Make sure you check this before buying!

- Smaller developers can sometimes lack good customer support. probably due to the overwhelming job of handling a small business.

- Computers get outdated fast, so keeping up with this means buying a brand new computer or new parts etc. Since most developers keep up with the latest hardware, that means you might have to as well if you want the latest stuff. This can get expensive.

- Software has paid upgrades for most developers. This means you have to pay for every major version. So if you buy version 1.0 you get version 1.0-1.9 free but Version 2.0 means you have to cough up a upgrade fee. Some developers are awesome and provide free updates, but that can change.

- The software world is FLOODED with options. Sometimes more options isn't always the best thing. This will mean you need to do research on the developers approach to quality and it can be time consuming. However to make this easier I'll just say that the best value for your money starting out is probably something like Native Instruments Komplete. It gives you SO much to work with, the learning curve can be high. Still you get a LOT for your money..

My other recommended company which i think offer good value and unique products that will complement native instruments kompete is U-he.

- You can find second pricing on KVR market place and blow through a lot of money if you aren't careful.

- You can find yourself also getting scammed on the KVR marketplace so be careful. Always check a posters feedback and post count before dealing with them. As a rule, i only do business with people who can communicate in english properly too. You can click on any members name and read there post history to get a idea of who you are dealing with.

- You can often run as many instances of a synthesizer or effect as your computer can handle. This means if your computer is outdated, then don't expect to run modern stuff.

- You will get trolled by hardware guys saying their stuff is superior, no sense arguing though it's a waste of time IMO :lol:


- Modern DSP techniques come with a hefty CPU price tag, so to use the best stuff you are going to need a modern CPU for live playback with lots of synthesizers like U-he Diva, Bazille, A.c.e etc. You generally want a CPU with plenty of cores running at a higher frequency and so forth (Intel Xeon 12 Core etc)

- With your average system (Quad Core i7 2.4ghz or better) you will still need to freeze plenty when working with lots of tracks. So technically you have to wait a moment while the computer records that track to audio and bypasses the plugin to save CPU.

- If you get a DSP farm setup, it require buying more computers and a networking system. Still this can be great to work with as it will let you run lots of stuff in real-time without having to freeze. Mac users can put together a DSP farm with multiple Mac minis for fairly cheap.

- Some copy protection systems (Dongles, C/R etc) can mess with your computer by running as a background process. This means just like an anti-virus it will constantly require a bit of CPU.

- IF you aren't a computer savvy person you might not like having to deal with constantly doing updates, dealing with bugs etc. This also means optimizing your system for DAW use too. In the past lots of people chose a Mac because they are usually good right out of the box for this kind of stuff. Not so sure about windows, but it might be just as good now.

- Most modern DAWS and programs still have their fair share of Bugs.

- Aliasing can and does happen with some synthesizers which can interfere with your entire output while mixing at lower resolutions 44.1, 48khz. To fix this, lots of developers have created oversampling systems inside the synth to prevent this. However it requires more CPU. You can run the entire project at 96khz to help with this but it will come at a heft CPU cost.

- PDC with some plugins will f**k with your songs timing depending on how well the DAW compensates. Ableton live has been notoriously bad for this in the past. This often requires you troubleshooting and finding the offending plugin by doing diagnostic type stuff. I used to make complex beats and find it all sounded out of time when i rendered it down using plugin oversampling in Ableton and thought i was going crazy. Well it turns out the PDC was messing with my audio back when i was a dedicate Live user. Not so sure how well the latest version is working..

Anyhow good luck with whatever you choose! :tu:
Last edited by V0RT3X on Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
:borg:

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Hey VORT3X,

Thank you once again for all the info! Seriously, I'm getting answers to my questions. Thank you all for the advice as well.

I probably should have mentioned my current set up, so here we go.

I'm running a Dell Precision Tower 5810. It has an Intel Xeon E5-1620 with 8GB of RAM and a 1 Terabyte hard drive. (Wish I got an SSD, but you only have so much $$$)

Then I got FL studio 12 producer edition with Harmor and many other FL plugins. I started diving into those, but I'm making music theory my top priority right now.

I have some skullcandy aviators, which I know aren't the best, but those are my headphones. But I have some Mackie CR4 studio monitors. I love them, and they work for me.

And that's it! That's all I got right now. I think I'm good with the computer and DAW and studio monitors, but I think I'm going to buy a good MIDI keyboard sometime soon.

Back to synths, I called my local synth shop yesterday. It's only ran by one person. I asked the person some questions on synths for beginners, I told them what synths I've been researching, and they said to not go with monophonic. They say their good, but for a beginner you can get bored quickly. I asked them if one of the Roland Boutique's would be good, and they thought that would be good for me. They say their getting a new shipment in soon, so I might buy a JU-06 or a JP-08 or a JX-03. That's kind of the final 3 synths I want to choose from, then I could hook them up to a midi keyboard.

But, if hard synths don't work out, I might go with Komplete 10, or just continue working with the synths I have.

Thank you all again, I really appreciate it!
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Image
While MakeNoise are eurorack trendsetters, this is very different from conventional east-coast synthesis. This is my favourite video that demonstrates the concept:

https://youtu.be/uI5H3SXiFwo

...and why it might be not suitable for classical-trained musican :wink:
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Tricky-Loops wrote: (...)someone like Armin van Buuren who claims to make a track in half an hour and all his songs sound somewhat boring(...)

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VORT3X, you should write a book! Or at least start charging for advice.
I'm going to copy your posts to my virtual studio notebook. :tu:

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chk071 wrote:Well, i took it he'd want to spend some money if he says his budget is $400, but, true, for a total beginner, it'd be the best to first try freeware.
Sorry I should have said - 'not so good advice' there - bit harsh.
Mastering from £30 per track \\\
Facebook \\\ #masteredbyloz

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My advice is to forget about hardware (unless your budget gets a HUGE boost) and get Komplete 10 at a 50% off sale.

And, why not, demo the U-He products too! They got 2 fab modulars: ACE (analogue) and Bazille (FM).

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