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Drenholm
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95 posts since 24 Feb, 2006, from Scotland

Postby Drenholm; Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:34 am Can we use VST MIDI effects?

Does LUNA support VST MIDI effects such as these: http://www.tobybear.de/p_midibag.html ? As far as I know, MIDI data is routed through a VST, processed and sent to the desired output. If they are supported, how do we use them?

Thanks.
muzycian
KVRAF
 
1645 posts since 23 May, 2002

Postby muzycian; Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:30 am

No, not yet possible.

Can you give me some quick feedback how this is done in other hosts?
Drenholm
KVRist
 
95 posts since 24 Feb, 2006, from Scotland

Postby Drenholm; Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:50 am

I don't know much about them. If you read the PDF file included in the package, it has an example and some information which should be a lot more informative to you than I'll be able to! It is very confusing; perhaps it is something of a hack. Thanks again.
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pljones
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6196 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:58 am

What I'd expect to be able to do is like with the audio outs on a VST instrument - pick the target: but in this case, it would be another Player. But the same idiom: select the VST MIDI Effect in the Player panel and use Options->Routing (or whatever) to set it all up. Ideally, with the option to route channels - or even finer-grained routing - to different players (that functionality should be available anywhere in the MIDI path, of course :)).
muzycian
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1645 posts since 23 May, 2002

Postby muzycian; Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:20 pm

Yes, that sounds natural :)

I also did some quick thinking in a more or less similar way, but you express it very clear and concrete.

I'll continue thinking 'bout this.

Thanks pljones!
guitarfrodo
KVRist
 
50 posts since 21 Mar, 2006, from NY Fingerlakes

Postby guitarfrodo; Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:28 pm

Regarding tobybear midibag effects the most anticipated for
me at least was the humanistor. I thought to try it to get
off the beat a little and vary the velocity attack without a
lot of effort in the various drum machines or sampler
players that have no obvious humanizing or quantize/shuffle feature. (ds-404,
cm-505, sr-202, sfz etc. for instance) It did not seem to
work in Cmuzys or Muzys and like Drenholm, I was hoping for
support here.

In a way this bring midi over towards the audio side of
things and to deepen the capabilities of a broad range of
plugs. Perhaps likening to how a more detailed audio desk
with pitchshift, timestetch and quantize settings brings
audio over to the midi compatible side of things. Midi
otherwise being quite unforgiving with any out of synch
audio.

Computer Music had quite an article on utilizing midi plugins in issue 103 but had little detail of how sequencer routing achitecture might be set up to incorporate it.
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pljones
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6196 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:11 am

Mmm, so anything selected in the Player Panel should have a MIDI Input (as all MIDI Input goes there), right? That works for VST Instruments, Effects and MFX plugins and controllable stuff like the mixer strips.

Mmm, maybe Sequences could be treated in a similar way to MFX plugins, then? Select the sequence, set its Player - and set a root note. MIDI Note ons then trigger the sequence, transposed appropriately, other events pass through to the Player. Or maybe the Part could hold the root note and you select the Part in the Player Panel...
Drenholm
KVRist
 
95 posts since 24 Feb, 2006, from Scotland

Postby Drenholm; Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:26 am

Your earlier post about routing made sense to me (and is probably the easiest way to implement this), but I don't understand what you just said! :S
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pljones
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6196 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:49 am

:D Think arpegiator. If I program a sequence C E G C, I want to be able to trigger it from any note on my keyboard and have that sequence play, transposed, using the assigned instrument. LUNA has to know what the root note is - i.e. the note with no transposition - and, as it already does with a Part, what instrument to use.

Of course, if Jo says yes to this, the next request is the same for audio sequences... ;)

Iterative development is good..!
Drenholm
KVRist
 
95 posts since 24 Feb, 2006, from Scotland

Postby Drenholm; Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:03 am

I see. The fact that that's not quite the issue is what confused me. Still, you have a point!
muzycian
KVRAF
 
1645 posts since 23 May, 2002

Postby muzycian; Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:53 am

Mmm, i definitely see what you mean, pljones, but i regard this as 2 separate topics.

Let's first concentrate on MIDI plugs.

So each sequence part has a player (maybe better word: "Target").

The player could be a MIDI plug.

And just like the audio of plugs can be inter-connected, the same can be done with MIDI.

Yep, will R&D this!
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pljones
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6196 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:24 am

So some kind of "MIDI mixer strips" might be needed? (And hey, then a VSTi could be a plugin on a MIDI mixer strip that had audio outs routed to an Audio mixer strip, and an Audio to MIDI plugin could route to a MIDI mixer strip...)
Drenholm
KVRist
 
95 posts since 24 Feb, 2006, from Scotland

Postby Drenholm; Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:10 pm

Jo explained it well. I don't think MIDI mixer strips would be necessary.

The way I see it, the chain would start with the MIDI sequence in question, which would be sent to and processed through an arbitrary number of MIDI plugins (in VST format - or whichever others Jo chooses to support!) before finally, after all desired processing, passing to the desired VSTi which would, as normal, send its audio to a standard mixer strip.

Sequence -> plugin -> (plugin -> etc. ->) VSTi -> mixer strip -> output

So, muzycian's idea of giving sequences targets seems as though it would be effective. The final stage in the chain would be the VSTi, which would simply output to a normal mixer strip, as I wrote above.

Does this make sense? I hope I'm getting the right idea! :)
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pljones
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6196 posts since 8 Feb, 2003, from London, UK

Postby pljones; Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:40 pm

Drenholm wrote:Jo explained it well. I don't think MIDI mixer strips would be necessary.

The way I see it, the chain would start with the MIDI sequence in question
Why prevent live MIDI being processed? The chain should start with external MIDI entering the system. Or any other MIDI source. (See early, early thread ;).)

Drenholm wrote:Sequence -> plugin -> (plugin -> etc. ->) VSTi -> mixer strip -> output
That linear arrangement is rather limiting. Say you have a plugin producing MIDI CC4 and CC7 messages. What if you want to route MIDI CC4 to your Pedalled Hihat VSTi but use CC7 to control the volume VST parameter of your Flute VSTi? And, ideally, you want to be able handle audio-to-MIDI plugins in the same architecture (so you can have the mic on the kick triggering the strobes behind the drummer in some fancy pattern).

Not necessarily on day one. But the architecture wants to be in place...
muzycian
KVRAF
 
1645 posts since 23 May, 2002

Postby muzycian; Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:51 pm

Yep, that's what i mean.

But with 1 nuance: A sequence part can also still target the VSTI directly, as each sequence part can always target ANY event-target :)

I think i understand why pljones speaks about a midi mixdesk: where to plug in a midi plug? Not in the audio mixdesk, that's not relevant.

So i'll think further on that one.
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