Yeah but not everyone likes the keyboard and if MuLab becomes another keyboard dependant app then it'll lose a customer. I prefer a mouse, and touchscreens WILL improve things if used correctly. It depends which functions become used through Touch. Imagine how much easier sliders, knobs and eventually buttons, step seq, piano roll will be using touch rather than or as well as mouse!
Anyone who's used the iElectribe on the iPad will know how easy and superior the interface is compared to a mouse and keyboard.
If you're used to using keyboards for years and regularly type everyday then it becomes second nature. But many users don't. Many users spend the vast majority of time spent on their PC using a mouse/touchpad.
Making MuLab More Obvious & Easy
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- KVRAF
- 2693 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
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- KVRAF
- 23102 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
It wouldn't be DEPENDANT. It would be an OPTION. The difference between these two terms is huge.
Not having an option is also losing a customer, look it that way
Not having an option is also losing a customer, look it that way
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- KVRAF
- 2874 posts since 22 Oct, 2002 from "somewhere between digital and analog"
I think your referring to mouse combinations for many things... I was referring to a single mouse combination for all the stretch options which would be pretty difficult. That is the popup with the most options is it not?
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- KVRAF
- 23102 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yeah I didn't mean one single mouse modifier to do that. You do a drag, it does one thing, you do a ctrl+drag, it does another, shift+drag yet another, etc.
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- KVRAF
- 9077 posts since 28 May, 2005 from Netherneverlands
Being a heavy mouse user too, I totally agreesl23 wrote:Yeah but not everyone likes the keyboard and if MuLab becomes another keyboard dependant app then it'll lose a customer. I prefer a mouse, and touchscreens WILL improve things if used correctly. It depends which functions become used through Touch. Imagine how much easier sliders, knobs and eventually buttons, step seq, piano roll will be using touch rather than or as well as mouse!
Anyone who's used the iElectribe on the iPad will know how easy and superior the interface is compared to a mouse and keyboard.
If you're used to using keyboards for years and regularly type everyday then it becomes second nature. But many users don't. Many users spend the vast majority of time spent on their PC using a mouse/touchpad.
Keyboard shortcuts are sóó last millennium
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- KVRAF
- 23102 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Keyboard shortcuts can really quicken things up. Ever heard of macros? 
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- KVRAF
- 7137 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
I don't mind mouse modifiers... except when it gets into the realms of "Alt-Shift-RightButton, leave shift held down, drag, release" things that are impossible to remember...
I'd rather have LMB-no modifier operations always prompt if there's a choice, then allow mapping of the choices by the user to assign like key shortcuts. So for each LMB operation with a dialog, I'd be able to say what LMB plus any combination of recognised modifier keys chose. There would, I guess, be defaults...
I'd rather have LMB-no modifier operations always prompt if there's a choice, then allow mapping of the choices by the user to assign like key shortcuts. So for each LMB operation with a dialog, I'd be able to say what LMB plus any combination of recognised modifier keys chose. There would, I guess, be defaults...
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- KVRAF
- 2693 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
Did you not get what I wrote above? If you're used to using the keyboard regular enough for it to become habit then yes it's quicker. But for people like me, even after 5 years heavy PC use I still have to look every time I want to use the keyboard to cut/copy/paste! I dislike the keyboard, for you it's faster, for me it's slower, therefore there has to be another way of doing if Jo doesn't want to alienate certain potentials and current users.
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- KVRAF
- 23102 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Have an option for mouse modifiers, have an option to disable the pop-up questions after you learn them after some time. Nothing gets REMOVED. Things get optionalized. So it's good for both you and me and everyone.sl23 wrote:therefore there has to be another way of doing if Jo doesn't want to alienate certain potentials and current users.
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- KVRAF
- 7137 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
Heh, I have to agree with sl23 and I've been using a keyboard for 30 plus years. Learning key combinations for stuff isn't natural. Learning the QWERTY (or locale-equivalent) layout isn't natural. It takes work. Pointing with a mouse, however, comes naturally to people, as does clicking (one) button to say "this!"... When you want to get something done quickly, it's a great way to start. (But it's self-limiting...)
(Ugh, I almost agreed with something Apple had done then... I feel unclean...
)
However, if - and it's an "if" that takes time and effort to become fulfilled - you become proficient with keyboard use in an application that provides good keyboard support to access its functions and do not have to be switching between mouse and keyboard to operate it, then using a keyboard can be faster and tends not to be restrictive - adding more features tends not to mean they become harder to access. I've not found any applications that require a combination of key presses and mouse movement beat being able to use one or other exclusively. That's because the design tends not to be well-thought - the usual reason they need both devices seems to be that "it was just easier to do that way", rather than for ease of use.
Of course, you can become equally proficient and fast using a multi-button pointing device with modifiers, if they enable all the functionality you need as easily (assuming mouse use makes sense at all in the target application). In both cases, learning keyboard shortcuts and learning an extensive mouse interface, it's about effort of learning. So I do think it's best to retain the option of keeping everything simple - point, click, menu, point, click, go - whilst allowing more high-powered users the flexibility somehow - shift+fifth-mouse-button, click, go!
I'll just add that the early research on using a pointing device clearly demonstrated that mouse modifiers and standard keyboard operations can be thought of separately - and it "makes sense" to think of them separately. You think about pressing shift whilst clicking to the same extent as you think about it when typing an upper-case letter - which, once you've typed for a while, is next to not at all. What you're thinking about is the mouse-click or the letter itself, not the modifier.
(Ugh, I almost agreed with something Apple had done then... I feel unclean...
)However, if - and it's an "if" that takes time and effort to become fulfilled - you become proficient with keyboard use in an application that provides good keyboard support to access its functions and do not have to be switching between mouse and keyboard to operate it, then using a keyboard can be faster and tends not to be restrictive - adding more features tends not to mean they become harder to access. I've not found any applications that require a combination of key presses and mouse movement beat being able to use one or other exclusively. That's because the design tends not to be well-thought - the usual reason they need both devices seems to be that "it was just easier to do that way", rather than for ease of use.
Of course, you can become equally proficient and fast using a multi-button pointing device with modifiers, if they enable all the functionality you need as easily (assuming mouse use makes sense at all in the target application). In both cases, learning keyboard shortcuts and learning an extensive mouse interface, it's about effort of learning. So I do think it's best to retain the option of keeping everything simple - point, click, menu, point, click, go - whilst allowing more high-powered users the flexibility somehow - shift+fifth-mouse-button, click, go!
I'll just add that the early research on using a pointing device clearly demonstrated that mouse modifiers and standard keyboard operations can be thought of separately - and it "makes sense" to think of them separately. You think about pressing shift whilst clicking to the same extent as you think about it when typing an upper-case letter - which, once you've typed for a while, is next to not at all. What you're thinking about is the mouse-click or the letter itself, not the modifier.
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- KVRAF
- 2973 posts since 10 Sep, 2003 from Karlskoga, Stockholm, Sweden
Use a modifier and the dialog wont pop up .. easy solution..?
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- KVRAF
- 2693 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
And you said you agreed with me 
Sounds like you're a keyboard fan! Nothing wrong with that. I do agree with the fact it should be like any other app, menu's are easier, even more so if they are customisable. Something few developers seem to understand or be bothered with.
People get bogged by all the options in these complex programs, but menu's are something we are used to using from pretty much every single app out there. But take another DAW with menu's and then imagine being able to customise them to suit YOU! Everything grouped how YOU want it with only the options/commands that YOU use.
MuLab has some unique ideas, well, not so much unique I suppose, but the fact that the ideas have been used differently and focused on which makes it far easier to use. Adding a couple custom buttons for your own commands as things progress I think is a good idea.
Also, I like this:
Marko, the dev for Cubic Explorer, is fantastic at accepting requests. Just like Jo, though Jo is more reserved due to making a living from his work. My point though is that CE is SOOOO customisable and caters for pretty much anyone. This approach ensures many options but keeps everyone happy. The app still needs a lot of work but the approach to it is what makes it good to use. Take WE then look at what you can do with CE to make it less cluttered! Huge difference. But some like clutter and it works for them so perhaps this could be worth looking at? Just an idea
Sounds like you're a keyboard fan! Nothing wrong with that. I do agree with the fact it should be like any other app, menu's are easier, even more so if they are customisable. Something few developers seem to understand or be bothered with.
People get bogged by all the options in these complex programs, but menu's are something we are used to using from pretty much every single app out there. But take another DAW with menu's and then imagine being able to customise them to suit YOU! Everything grouped how YOU want it with only the options/commands that YOU use.
MuLab has some unique ideas, well, not so much unique I suppose, but the fact that the ideas have been used differently and focused on which makes it far easier to use. Adding a couple custom buttons for your own commands as things progress I think is a good idea.
Also, I like this:
I think the focus needs to stay with drag/drop but with touch becoming more the norm, it would be good for Jo to follow the trend lest MuLab becomes a dead duck, catering only for a few passionate users!Have an option for mouse modifiers, have an option to disable the pop-up questions after you learn them after some time. Nothing gets REMOVED. Things get optionalized. So it's good for both you and me and everyone.
Marko, the dev for Cubic Explorer, is fantastic at accepting requests. Just like Jo, though Jo is more reserved due to making a living from his work. My point though is that CE is SOOOO customisable and caters for pretty much anyone. This approach ensures many options but keeps everyone happy. The app still needs a lot of work but the approach to it is what makes it good to use. Take WE then look at what you can do with CE to make it less cluttered! Huge difference. But some like clutter and it works for them so perhaps this could be worth looking at? Just an idea
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- KVRAF
- 23102 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
I know I'll never accept a touchscreen as a main source of input for any kind of DAW work. It's just not precise/fast enough as mouse+keyboard. As a controller for sliders and whatnot, yes, but for dealing with items and work in MIDI editor, hell no. Just not fast enough.
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- KVRAF
- 2693 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
Touchscreen will enhance a DAW, imagine using the touchscreen to adjust the front panel on the mux or even build a mux! Are you seriously saying you'd still use the keyboard and mouse instead of the most natural way you could ever imagine, ie, you're fingers?!!!
Doesn't mean mouse and KB need to be redundant, just adding touch ability will make for an even faster way than those in certain areas.
I for one can't wait for Tablet PC's to become the norm! I'd still connect a wireless Mouse/KB though but they'd become the lesser used peripherals. Imagine having a hi res 13" Tablet running MuLab with a, hopefully by then, a wireless controller KB.
Doesn't mean mouse and KB need to be redundant, just adding touch ability will make for an even faster way than those in certain areas.
I for one can't wait for Tablet PC's to become the norm! I'd still connect a wireless Mouse/KB though but they'd become the lesser used peripherals. Imagine having a hi res 13" Tablet running MuLab with a, hopefully by then, a wireless controller KB.
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- KVRian
- 1441 posts since 4 Oct, 2012 from Utah
I actually don't want my laptop to become my tablet. Keep them seperate please!
If you're interested in controlling parameters with a touch screen look into DAWOSC or TOUCHDAW on android. For IOS look into TOUCHOSC. All of which work well with Mulab.
If you're interested in controlling parameters with a touch screen look into DAWOSC or TOUCHDAW on android. For IOS look into TOUCHOSC. All of which work well with Mulab.
