Natural minor scale and lydian mode

[rbarata]

Hello, my friends

What scale must I use in the melody to get the lydian mode, in a song in the key of E minor?

Thank you

[ecsmix]

On E minor chords and extensions,Em7,13,6,7,9,11th you could use G lydian scale.
Another option is to use

Lydian scale is a major scale with it's 4th degree raised.

The same scale of E minor or G major is C lydian: C D E F# G A B.

[JumpingJackFlash]

The following may provide some useful information:
Scales, Modes and Chords

[Ogg Vorbis]

Hello, my friends

What scale must I use in the melody to get the lydian mode, in a song in the key of E minor?

Thank you

"Using a lydian mode in the key of E minor" is something of a contradiction. That's like saying, how can I speak Russian while I am speaking Swedish? Either you are emphasizing natural minor or you are emphasizing lydian tonality.

Now if you have a song in the key of E minor, you can switch to some lydian scale in the midst of it. Like speaking Russian and then switching to Swedish for a little while. So all you have to do to accomplish this is to stop harping on E F# G A B C D and start emphasizing E F# G# A# B C# D# (to get E lydian).

I am critical of the response that you can use G lydian over E minor chords. That doesn't make sense to me. It would not come across as G lydian at all. E minor would continue to persist in the ear as a tonal center.

Modes are not just "recipes" or formulae of half steps and whole steps. They have very different way in which they achieve tonal anchorage. In other words, D major and E dorian have the same notes, but they are two different tonal centers.

[jancivil]

that's right. a mode has its character, shown by character tones and how they relate primarily to the tonic. and to each other. Lydian's character tones are the sharp 4 and sharp 7; both have relationships of perfect 4/perfect 5 to the major 3rd (another determinant for lydian).

against 'e minor chords', that most noticable C# of 'G lydian' has a different character, C# is the major sixth from that E, the characteristic for Dorian (for western musicians, it sets it apart from 'minor', which 'naturally' has a minor 6th)... so what you really have is E dorian. Lydian isn't happening.

[jancivil]

...

[jancivil]

there are cases where you have two chords, say two major chords a tone (whole step) apart, with equal duration and each with some emphasis in the bass. I would still find one of them having more weight, I think the way the mind works kind of requires it, but we can notice that another feeling from a modal character is present over the 'secondary' chord or bass.

E and D: Let's say the first chord you hear is E and you have the scale E F# G# A B C# D.
Over the D that G# feels like Lydian. But probably the higher tone in this relationship has more weight so we call it E Mixolydian. But it's fun to have that other aspect of it when you're at that other plateau area.

[ecsmix]

G lydian over E minor is what Lydian Chromatic Concept tells you to do.

However if one would like to shift the tonal balance a little bit some other notes could be introduced to the G lydian scale like Eb,Bb,F,C and the most distant one Ab.

[jancivil]

in none of those cases are we actually talking about Lydian, though.

The Lydian Chromatic Concept is a deep concept and its basic thesis takes the tritone as a lynchpin, as a way of conceptualizing chromaticism. One of its thrusts is to take the concept of the flat five substitution principle as regards dominant function and abstract it so it's useful beyond ii-V-I, Tea For Two-type changes.

To talk about Lydian on a minor chord based in that text would take some doing. Frankly, that's pretty glib.

[Nystul]

G lydian over E minor is what Lydian Chromatic Concept tells you to do.

It will sound great, but it won't sound like G lydian in that context (over Em as the tonic chord). If C# to D is emphasized it may sound as a dorian concept.

[jancivil]

On E minor chords and extensions,Em7,13,6,7,9,11th you could use G lydian scale.

you may as well say 'use D major scale' as that. If a scale is coloring a chord, a chord that's in our heads, been established (as opposed to rapid movement such as in bebop), the Lydian color is supplied by sharp 4. Again the character tone for G lydian is, per E, the M6. There is no 'there', there.

Owing to the rapid movement of chords in a chromatic, modulating music (or harmonic function per se, at all), talking about modes isn't more than talking about scales. there is no reason to say that's G lydian. We must talk about a scale more usefully, more simply.

With that kind of thinking about a minor chord, chances aren't bad it's the ii in D major. So you'd say in that case, 'D major scale' and there's sense to it.

[robbie111]

What scale must I use in the melody to get the lydian mode, in a song in the key of E minor?

C Lydian is the scale but to make it pop add the C and F# from it to your Emin chord. On guitar it would look like open on low E, 2nd fret A string, 2nd fret D string, open G string, 1st fret B string, and 2nd fret High E string. Then play C lydian against this chord focusing on the C and F# tones will also help. This chord which can be thought of as an Emin9b6(or Em9#5)will help you fuse the E minor elements with the C Lydian which is the mode you are describing. If you need more explanation check out Frank Gambales Modes: No More Mystery. He helps explain modes in great detail.

P.S if you'd like a second chord to play with this one back and forth try playing a regular C major but replace the D string 2nd fret(E note) with D string 4th fret (F# note)

[Ogg Vorbis]

What scale must I use in the melody to get the lydian mode, in a song in the key of E minor?

C Lydian is the scale but to make it pop add the C and F# from it to your Emin chord. On guitar it would look like open on low E, 2nd fret A string, 2nd fret D string, open G string, 1st fret B string, and 2nd fret High E string. Then play C lydian against this chord focusing on the C and F# tones will also help. This chord which can be thought of as an Emin9b6(or Em9#5)will help you fuse the E minor elements with the C Lydian which is the mode you are describing. If you need more explanation check out Frank Gambales Modes: No More Mystery. He helps explain modes in great detail.

P.S if you'd like a second chord to play with this one back and forth try playing a regular C major but replace the D string 2nd fret(E note) with D string 4th fret (F# note)

I tried this but all I heard was E natural minor. In your example C acts like a tendency tone to want to resolve to B. In true C Lydian, B does not have this tendency. Plus E remains the tonal center as my ear hears it.

May as well call it F# Locrian over E minor harmony...calling a horse's tail a leg does not make the horse have five legs.

[Sascha Franck]

I tried this but all I heard was E natural minor. In your example C acts like a tendency tone to want to resolve to B. In true C Lydian, B does not have this tendency. Plus E remains the tonal center as my ear hears it.

May as well call it F# Locrian over E minor harmony...calling a horse's tail a leg does not make the horse have five legs.

This should basically end the discussion. Seconded on all accounts.

Unless you really want to play "outside", there's no lydian over a minor chord. The "rule" for plain old lydian is "major scale with a sharp fourth". Oh yeah, I know about several constructed scales, such as lydian minor (something like melodic minor with a sharp 4th) or even "lydian dorian" (dorian with a #4), or even the more commonly known "lydian flat 7" (which really should be named mixo #11) but they all don't exactly sound lydian.

- Sascha

[jancivil]

What scale must I use in the melody to get the lydian mode, in a song in the key of E minor?

Then play C lydian against this chord focusing on the C and F# tones will also help. This chord which can be thought of as an Emin9b6(or Em9#5)will help you fuse the E minor elements with the C Lydian which is the mode you are describing.

As Ogg said, you may as well say it's E minor. 'that punch' appears to be the tritone C/F#, so say that and it's simple and clear.

For "E minor", lydian is an oxymoron. It may be that a person can think of every chord as a new tonic and this kind of thinking is useful to spur an idea to do in that moment... although that doesn't even apply here.
"E minor elements" is fuzzy. Sure, you can do an E minor chord in C Lydian, no problem, but the question was 'get the lydian mode in the key of E minor'. There is no point in [elements of] the key of E minor glommed onto C lydian.

Key of E minor has a tonic of E; C lydian has a 'tonic' of C. End of story.

For someone that's more new to the concepts this is seriously overcomplicating things, where we really want to keep it simple when it's simple conceptually.

Even if you take Gambale as authoritative, and I've seen this done before with the same kind of problematic statement, it doesn't make it more useful. I'm glad I didn't see this stuff when I was young, frankly.