MIDI Data & Time Signature: Does 1/8th triplet grid equal 12/8 time?

[stringtapper]

the nominator of a time signature is the amount of 'beats per bar'. Per se. That is what it's there for, as the indicator of the amount of beats. Twelve_Eighth Note_Beats.

Just to clarify some things here:

The numerator of a simple meter denotes the number of beats per measure. The denominator denotes the duration of the beat.

But 12/8 is a compound meter and in compound meters the numerator denotes the number of beat divisions per bar. The denominator denotes the duration of the beat division.

So 4/4 is defined as a "quadruple simple" meter because it contains four beats per measure and its beats have a duple division.

12/8 is usually defined as a "quadruple compound" meter because it has four beats per measure and its beats have a triple division.

I say "usually" because you do find instances of compound meters conducted as if they are simple meters with what would normally be considered the division of the beat actually taking the beat. More common for very slow 6/8, not very common for 12/8. I'm thinking of a movement from a wind ensemble piece by Darius Milhaud as a case of 6/8 being conducted like a simple meter.

[jancivil]

12/8 is usually defined as a "quadruple compound" meter because it has four beats per measure and its beats have a triple division.

As to your use of 'has' here: 12/8 has 12 eighth note beats, objectively. 4 x 3 or 3 x 4 is one way to parse it, but so is 7 + 5. The actual idea for 12/8 could be [2+2+3]+[2+3]/8, which is definitely 12 8ths. So <compound meter> is an attribute rather than a determinant per se. I don't agree that 12 is the division of 4 or that 4 is the beat. I believe the compound time aspect is implicit in the OP and explicated in subsequent discussion so this reinforces that rather than clarifies. The dotted quarter as the denominator for a time signature would need to be made clear, it appears to be somewhat rare.

The OP is concerned with MIDI Data and Time Signature. Now, to that point, for the sequencer in the DAW to deal with 12/8 as "four beats per measure" it has to take the dotted quarter as the denominator. I think this is rarely if ever true. The fact of compound meter does not necessarily amount to '12/8 is four beats per bar'. 3 x 4 is 4 x 3. Compound meter here also indicates 12/8 = 6/4 (or 3/2), then. It may not always be so useful to designate as such, but objectively it is true. It may turn out that emphasis changes, and as to the machine, it does not care and retaining 12/8 for 6/4 is ok. The machine has no opinion or culture. The only way it can know about 4 beats is to instruct 4/dotted 4. That's not available to me, but if this is true, why not. This 'four beats per bar' is merely a convention. If your culture is always doing triple division of 4 pulses = 12, that's your truth. If your culture is, the whole thing is to emphasize 7 + 5 (crossed against the hemiola/double perspective owing to the compound time aspect), that's your truth. What's true for the machine is 12/8 means 12 8ths.

[stringtapper]

Ok in terms of sequencing 12/8 in a DAW, yes DAWs really can't deal with dotted quarter note beats.

But in terms of the basic understanding of what 12/8 is as a musical meter it definitely has four beats. Full stop. To say otherwise is to simply not understand what a compound meter is.

[jancivil]

So your definition of 'as a musical meter' restricts us all to this one convention which is the most familiar to you? That's terrible. I would say with absolute confidence that I have demonstrated a full understanding of what the f**k compound time is, but I can't possibly have that because my understanding of 12/8 (is objective and) exceeds your more narrow understanding and I guess experience. Total_logic_FAIL. All you are really saying to me is, I have to absolutely agree with you or I don't understand something I totally do understand. I want to remain collegial but that's shite.

[jancivil]

Both discussions, you seem to just skim what I've written as convenience dictates. What do you not get about 7 plus 5 equals 12? 6 plus 6 for that matter. 12/8 "has" four pulses when it does. In terms of a time signature, it has 12 8th notes (in every possible case! This is a true statement.) as we can plainly see. I've never actually seen 4 over dotted quarter as a time signature. It does not seem essential. Maybe your belief is so strong that it does to you, and maybe the invention of 12/8 (your "basic understanding of") had to have been a way to express triplet division of 4 beats. Objectively it's 12/8 as stated. So, "quadruple compound meter" is an attribute, not a determinant per se. I would not teach dotted quarter as the beat, ie., denominator in the time signature. I feel sure that is the normative definition of *beat* in time signature. Your "basic" definition is secondary and requires new context.

[stringtapper]

Sorry, but a meter being compound means that the beat is divided by three. That's just the definition. 12/8 is a compound meter. Therefore has four dotted quarter note beats.

I can't imagine a single musician or music educator who would disagree with this.

It isn't some dogmatic bullshit I made up. It's a basic tenet of how meter is organized and explained.

[jancivil]

So because for you 'this is a basic tenet of musical organization' everyone's use of the 12/8 meter conforms to it. That's definitely dogmatic. All definitions have to conform to, simply must circle back to this first principle. Whether or not that originated with you, your belief is dogmatic. So you never encountered someone that did any different, so you can't even imagine the disagreement. Here's the very picture of 'narrow-minded'.

And, it's appropriate for you to dismiss the fact I am a musician in service of this crap. "I can't imagine a single musician or music educator who would disagree with this." I just did. (To clarify in case you skipped over it, I acknowledge what compound meter is, and 12/8 is certainly a case of it. I have described other musical uses that still add up to 12 8ths.) Your logic is really shockingly deficient. This is a basic tenet, therefore any statement to the contrary is to be dismissed out of hand. All arguments, regardless of the clarity of the statement and the obvious truth of them, are false. <12/8 has to be 4/dotted quarters> is your actual statement. This "basic tenet of..." jazz does not force us to this as the only possibly true statement about 12/8. It does not make the *beat*, in the normative sense of beat as per time signature (and I would be AMAZED to see anyone really argue different) not the 8th note beat as given in the time signature. 12/8 *is* a compound meter. Your use of the word 'is' is suspect. That's a basic problem. It is when it is, isn't when it isn't. It seems that you are asserting all other equations are impossible, logically speaking.

Your belief in what for you is a first principle has you in contortions to redefine 'beat in time signature'. The proof you'll need for this as basic is to show me the preponderance of dotted quarters in time signatures. Your argument is circular to a premise that is not basic, in order to assert it is. Reduced it states that '12 is a factor of 4 so all other arguments as to the reality of 12 are out the window'. Musically there is this particular convention which somehow produced this first principle. No, I feel free enough to consider 12 beats as 12 beats and f**k that organizing tenet. I wouldn't want to be this married to some words.

[stringtapper]

You must be confusing phrase organization with meter.

If something is "6+6" the clearest way to write that is as a two measure phrase in some sextuplet meter.

If something organized as "5+7" then the clearest way to write that is, for example, a bar of 5/8 plus a bar of 7/8. Not 12/8.

I already mentioned the facts that some compound meters can be conducted with the division acting as the pulse but I've mostly seen that with 6/8.

That still doesn't change the fact that most standard way of using 6/8 is as a duple compound meter and 12/8 as a quadruple compound meter. In both cases the dotted quarter note is the beat.

This is like the ABCs of music. I literally taught it this week in a college course on music fundamentals.

[jancivil]

I am not at all confused. Metrically, the indication, the time signature given is 12. Through this special definition of compound meter, it can be that the stress is 4. In this case 'the meter is 4' is considered to be true. In the case where the stress is not 4, this is not true. The definition of compound time does not rule over all other considerations. "That still doesn't change the fact that most standard way of using..." AHA! So you've had to move the goalposts. So, as I stated a few times, this is a convention. You asserted a first principle out of this conventional usage. No good, doesn't work.

That you state 7 plus 5 should be clearer as simply 7 plus 5 doesn't change the fact that there is music that considers the 'meter' to be 12 and this is part of what happens. I actually explicated the use, in addition to that aspect there is hemiola which belongs with compound time. It IS 12/8. For that matter it is 12/8 because I say it is. For you, it looks like compound time is the be all and end all to the story of 12/8. I don't have that problem. And I wouldn't like a dogmatic teacher.

[stringtapper]

And I'm not "redefining beat in time signature."

If you are saying that the numerator always denotes the number of beats and the denominator always denotes the duration of the beat then you simply cannot claim that you understand the definition of a compound meter.

In a compound meter the numerator denotes the numbers of beat divisions and the denominator denotes the duration of the beat division. End of.

[jancivil]

"If you are saying that the numerator always denotes the number of beats and the denominator always denotes the duration of the beat then you simply cannot claim that you understand the definition of a compound meter."

I am NOT saying that!!!!! I'm CLEARLY saying that is one way to approach 12/8.


"In a compound meter the numerator denotes the numbers of beat divisions and the denominator denotes the duration of the beat division. End of."

I fully grok and have continued to acknowledge 12/8 as compound time. SO, like I said, you do not really read what I write, it's a big waste of my time interacting with you. No one that says shit like your first statement is worth my time at all. Anybody that can read english has access to what I understand about this by now. Sod you.

[stringtapper]

Man she gets riled up!

[Jace-BeOS]

This argument is funny to me. Not only am I having pre-algebra class flashbacks (most advanced I got with math), and am barely able read the posts (my brain wants to shut off as my eyes roll over all the numbers, especially when turning 12/8 into "2+2+2+3+3/2+2+2+1+1" or whatever that was), I can't even grasp what the argument is!

Trying to read music theory discussion is especially challenging for a math-disabled person like myself, but when witnessing two people that clearly know music theory strongly disagreeing with each other, I can't even form an opinion on one person's side or the other. This isn't so strange, if the subject was something mostly foreign to me, like astrophysics or chemistry. But music is something I do regularly, and I even find myself occasionally successfully changing my DAW time signatures to match a raw un-metronomed improv with a DAW's rulers. How can a person create music and be incapable of groking the theory behind it? I wish I could defeat gravity or build space ships by similar inability to do the math...

[stringtapper]

If one goes back to one of my first posts in the thread they will find that I already talked about cases of compound meters being written so that the beat division takes the pulse.

I was only ever arguing about what a compound meter is and what the numerator and denominator mean in that context.

[jancivil]

Not going to keep flogging the dead horse (It pissed me off to be told what I understand after I have gone into such detail on that very thing), but I'd like to explicate further. "<7 + 5 is 12/8> is best written as 7/8 then 5/8". Not if the cycle is 12 beats, it isn't. There is a whole type of African drum ensemble activity that is a cycle of 12 beats where the main thing is 7 + 5, it's consistent as a stress while other action is concerned with 4 or 3. Let's have a look at Indian tala. One of the more common is tintal. It's only ever been stated as 16 beats. 4 + 4 + 4 + 4, in fact. One may want to argue that it's just the 4 beats according to one's understanding, but it does not change, or address, that the cycle is 16 beats long. Dhamar tal is 14 beats long, that is 5 + 2 + 3 + 4. To argue that the clearest way to express that is for example 5/8, 2/8, 3/8, 4/8 rather than 14/8 has no real point. The cycle is only completed after 14 is done. So we have a measure, a measure of time where we explicitly define its length of (12) of a duration (8th notes.) There are numerous possibilities here. Ektal is 12: 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2. Should I put that in Cubase Tempo Track as 12/8, that's that. That's the idea. There is no good in forcing your point on me. You may have a religious quality of belief in compound meter to where that's always true, but that's you, that is not The Truth.