MIDI Data & Time Signature: Does 1/8th triplet grid equal 12/8 time?

[jancivil]

It's said that 9 is triple compound time. That's true when it's true. It does not change the fact that a lot of the time it is 5 + 4 or 4 + 5. Or 4 + 3 + 2.

[jancivil]

Another thing, I mentioned hemiola a couple of times. Typical example, America by Sondheim/Bernstein, West Side Story. The hook here, eg., 'I want to be in A-mer-i-ca' is: a bar of 6 8ths, accented on 1 & 4, alternating with a bar of 3 quarters. 4 times. It's definitely in 6/8 according to the sheet music.

[stringtapper]

Another thing, I mentioned hemiola a couple of times. Typical example, America by Sondheim/Bernstein, West Side Story. The hook here, eg., 'I want to be in A-mer-i-ca' is: a bar of 6 8ths, accented on 1 & 4, alternating with a bar of 3 quarters. 4 times. It's definitely in 6/8 according to the sheet music.

I suppose he found it easier to notate that way. I have played arrangements of "America" that had the phrase written as an alternation between 6/8 and 3/4 to make the metrical shift clearer.

But make no mistake, that second bar is conducted as if it were a bar of 3/4, because when it comes down to what's actually sounding, that's what it is.

[jancivil]

"when it comes down to what's actually sounding, that's what it is."

It is a hemiola (in the modern sense of the word) written in 6/8. To that point, there are times in the music (in the original) where both the 2 stress and the 3 stress coexist.

arrangements of "America" that had the phrase written as an alternation between 6/8 and 3/4 to make the metrical shift clearer

Really? as though the accent isn't totally clear. What moron needs that much help. That's just like you in this thread, the whole aspect is perfectly clear from the original post onward, 'does triplets in 4/4 equal 12/8 time', but you had to, and more than once browbeat me like I don't know what time it is, for having a view that deviated from your dogmatic statement.

[stringtapper]

You just can't write without hurling unnecessary insults, can you?

If you talk to people like that in person I wonder how you avoid getting your ass beat.

[jancivil]

[Edit, redundant]

12/8 is a compound meter. Therefore has four dotted quarter note beats.

I can't imagine a single musician or music educator who would disagree with this.

I have to explain, then? The better statement is 'Compound time can be defined as a meter where each beat in a measure can be subdivided by three. It is commonly distinguished by dotted note.'

[stringtapper]

Apparently this time it's personal.

[jancivil]

You just can't write without hurling unnecessary insults, can you?

If you talk to people like that in person I wonder how you avoid getting your ass beat.

What insult? I just described something that happened in the thread. Demonstrate this hurled unnecessary insult.
Can you not argue a point without browbeating someone? QED:

To say otherwise is to simply not understand what a compound meter is.

... you simply cannot claim that you understand the definition of a compound meter.

Because for you I'd said something I never said, And you did that directly following this:

...it can be that the stress is 4. In this case 'the meter is 4' is considered to be true. In the case where the stress is not 4, this is not true.

Check yourself.

[jancivil]

Apparently this time it's personal.

That's apparent? How? What's eating you. I did find some arranger feeling he needed to go to the lengths of inserting 3/4 every other bar in America kind of just hilarious. I said that, for me that's like you more than once stating I can't know what compound time is in a thread where the entire context in the OP is that 4 beats. Why is that necessary? And my first reply to you was your clarification was more of a reinforcement of that [4 feel].

[stringtapper]

Apparently this time it's personal.

That's apparent? How? What's eating you. I did find some arranger feeling he needed to go to the lengths of inserting 3/4 every other bar in America kind of just hilarious. I said that, for me that's like you more than once stating I can't know what compound time is in a thread where the entire context is that 4 beats. Why is that necessary? And my first reply to you was your clarification was more of a reinforcement of that [4 feel].

So we're all good here, or what?

[jancivil]

Yeah, why wouldn't we be.

[stringtapper]

Yeah, why wouldn't it be.

Because you seem really riled up.

[jancivil]

For me to keep seeing you hammer on the same point repeatedly began to look like you'd decided to skim posts, just to scan for something to prove wrong (and do "... you simply cannot claim that you understand the definition of a compound meter."). I find that unnecessary. Yesterday I was a bit peeved behind that.

I'm used to there being a 2 emphasis and a 3 emphasis in 12/8 or 6/8. African music, Afro-Cuban music. The typical 12 in Indian music does not have the 4 emphasis, it's 3 or 6 (and it's "12" because that's the length of the idea before 'sam' or ONE.).

Similarly, if I saw it stated that 8/8 (3+3+2) can't be called 4/4 because 4 *is* the emphasis, I would not agree. As found in the Bo Diddley rhythm, aka Clave, most would say 4/4. And this 12/8, as a shuffle, in the rock band context you're going to count off 4. So, for me this 'Would be most clearly written as ... [not 12/8]' is kind of argumentative rather than to consider the other person's thought at all.

[IncarnateX]

Why do everybody hate everybody in the music theory forum? Just wonder. IMO this forum is one of the few where there are things to learn from the different viewpoints and yet you get this impression that people are disgusted by each other's contributions. Is it the topics or the people? When there are more solutions to one question as there often are with respect to music theory, debates should in principle be healthy, but around here it seems to make people enemies for life

[jancivil]

I don't hate that guy or even close to it. I regretted bumping this thread anyway, I'd already made that point (that the 8th note of 12/8 as a way to write triplet 8th in 4/4 IS 150% of the rate of that 4/4 by the clock) I think clearly enough. The thread from the start is about 12/8 as 4 beats, there is no particular sign we're not clear on the concept. It seemed like someone that needed to top. (Maybe that's just me.) Reduced to essence, the argument looks like: <the basis of 12 IS 4x3.> & I did not need to be browbeaten on something I've known for half a century, just for presenting that there is more than one way to skin this cat. Stupid thing to argue about in the first place.

I express my frustration a lot of the time. I'd rather get it off my chest than stew in it, like some people do. I am or course reminded of a thread where you insisted that all polyrhythm has to be... the term that sums it up is the psychology word 'bistable'. I showed concretely (& abundantly) by cases where this is not true (and dared to be so "aggressive" as to do 'please do me the courtesy of considering what I wrote before arguing'), which upset you enormously. Evidently you'd developed bad feelings and harbored them leading up to the blow-up. Physician heal thyself, typa thing.