Why sound a Dur scale better than a random collection of notes???

[crazyfiltertweaker]

I really really dont have a clue why our scale is working so fine with the two half tone steps and the 5 full tone steps. Why is it note the same if we use any collection of notes or even all notes at once?

YEs yes, you will tell me there would be no gravity anymore, no "home", no functions. BUT WHY?

They tried to explain it to tell me it is the sub-tonic and other dissonant intervalls within the chords which make the tension rules within a scale.
BUT nothing of that helped me to understand REALLY why we use diatonic scales and especially why exactly these TWO HALFSTEPS????

[vurt]

ratios.

[Sendy]

The major scale isn't some arbitrary arrangement that's become culturally ingrained in the collective ear, every interval within it is an approximation of a pure harmonic ratio found in the harmonic series. There's a reason the words "harmonics" and "harmonies" are almost identical, things sound in harmony when many of their harmonics line up and somewhat coincide with whatever they're harmonizing with.

You can put the halfsteps anywhere anyway, that's what modes are. The major scale seems to be the most "natural" or neutral and the further you deviate from it, the more "coloured" the resulting music seems to be, with the scale consisting of the white notes starting from B (I never got around to memorizing mode names, I know, I'm terrible ) being the most coloured, to the point that it sounds off-colour or ill.

You can remove the halfsteps entirely and you get the wholetone scale, sometimes called the dream scale (usually used in dream or thought sequences, and accompanied by wavy, blurry transitions in TV programs). Without the halfsteps there are no landmarks and hence no "home" key - which is why it's perfect for representing the limbo of dreams and distant emotions.

Hope this helps.

[JumpingJackFlash]

BUT nothing of that helped me to understand REALLY why we use diatonic scales and especially why exactly these TWO HALFSTEPS????

Who is "we"? - Many people don't use our "major scale" at all.
It's a cultural thing. You're used to hearing things done that way so it sounds good to you. If had been brought up in India, chances are you would prefer something else.

[Musicologo]

It does? I never noticed... I'd say it sounds as good as anything else...

Now getting serious it's a mix of both above answers. Our scale was designed to acomodate the first tones of the harmonic series to it has a kind of physical natural ressonance in it.

However this is all social constructed and has a lot to do what you've heard around you since as a child. If you were born in a place without these scales you'd like the ones from that place. I even know a guy that just likes "sounds" and "electroacoustic music". He doesn't like "scales" at all. For him it just sounds "all the same"... I don't know what happened...

[JumpingJackFlash]

Our scale was designed to acomodate the first tones of the harmonic series

No, it wasn't.

Much of this has already been discussed on another recent thread on here:
We have scales but why??
Coincidentally, it was started by the same poster as the OP. He obviously didn't learn much from it.

[cruisy18]

You don't need to read too much into it. Scales are basically a guide for when writing music. If a sharp or flat that's out of key sounds good in your composition, use it - nobody's gonna go OMG THAT SOUNDS OUT OF KEY AND BAD, DUDE... unless, of course, it really does sound bad. Then, you revert back to a note in the scale.

[Tricky-Loops]

ratios.

Sometimes the truth can be one word only...
But where is tappermike to explain it in full depth?

[crazyfiltertweaker]

You don't need to read too much into it. Scales are basically a guide for when writing music. If a sharp or flat that's out of key sounds good in your composition, use it - nobody's gonna go OMG THAT SOUNDS OUT OF KEY AND BAD, DUDE... unless, of course, it really does sound bad. Then, you revert back to a note in the scale.

But if I read theory books, they say "stay in scales and if you want to leave them, modulate or use secondary dominants or substitutes!"

This tell me: Scales are a collection of notes which are right and if you leave it without these named technics, you are wrong. And yes! It sounds REALLY wrong!
BUT WHY?

And another question beside: Why we use exactly 7 notes, not 8, 9, 10 or even 11 or 12???

[Nanakai]

But if I read theory books, they say "stay in scales and if you want to leave them, modulate or use secondary dominants or substitutes!"

Which book(s)?

[whyterabbyt]

This tell me: Scales are a collection of notes which are right

No, scales are just a collection of notes.

and if you leave it without these named technics, you are wrong.

No, you're merely outside the collection of notes.

And yes! It sounds REALLY wrong!

To whom?

BUT WHY?

Magic.

And another question beside: Why we use exactly 7 notes, not 8, 9, 10 or even 11 or 12???

Like the 7 used in all those pentatonic scales?

[Jafo]

Harmonics and habit. They're both good reasons, but neither is necessary. The ear is king: if something sounds good, it is good. Well, unless you're being graded, of course.

[sjm]

The idea of a 7 note major scale is a Western idea, and even in western music there's no lack of music that uses notes from outside the scale or uses other scales. There is no hard and fast rule that states you need to use just these notes and most interesting music doesn't. And even in Western music there are far more scales than major or minor.

There are many other music systems that use different notes and these systems are not "wrong".

Also, you can't approach a creative subject like music using a paint by numbers approach anyway. Well you can, but that makes for bland music. Music theory looks at what people have done and attempts to rationalise it, it isn't an attempt to say "there are the rules, never stray from them". If you are an painter, it helps to understand the theory behind perspective, for example, but no one says that everything you paint need to make use of perspective, or that your perspective needs to mimic the way we see things in real life. Sure, if you set out with the intention of writing music that conforms to a particular set of pre-conceived notions, it's important to know what those notions boil down to. You can't write a waltz in 11/4; a blues won't sound like the blues if it's just a random sequence of notes.

So part of your answer is "expectation", which is largely down to your cultural upbringing. Another part of your anwers is "ratios", which explains why notes are what they are and not just random pitches - the pentatonic scale which is common the world over relies on very simple pitch ratios.




But really, you're asking a question that's the same as asking "Why is blue the nicest colour? Why does it go so well with green?"

[elnn]

You don't need to read too much into it. Scales are basically a guide for when writing music. If a sharp or flat that's out of key sounds good in your composition, use it - nobody's gonna go OMG THAT SOUNDS OUT OF KEY AND BAD, DUDE... unless, of course, it really does sound bad. Then, you revert back to a note in the scale.

But if I read theory books, they say "stay in scales and if you want to leave them, modulate or use secondary dominants or substitutes!"

This tell me: Scales are a collection of notes which are right and if you leave it without these named technics, you are wrong. And yes! It sounds REALLY wrong!
BUT WHY?

And another question beside: Why we use exactly 7 notes, not 8, 9, 10 or even 11 or 12???

1) there are 8 tone, 9 tone, 10 tone, 11 tone, 12 tone scales as well.

2) you're asking the wrong question - it's not why a scale per se sounds better - it's why staying in a certain key (after all we choose the scales we play accordingly to the key) and playing the notes 'belonging' to that key / scale sounds 'good'.
I'd say it's related to predictability. It's in human nature to try to predict things and hell do we enjoy doing that. Western scales are very predictable to the Western man, we're so used to hearing them - thus the 'good sounding-ness' of these scales. But it still doesn't answer the question, as they sound correct only in the right context. Thus, we have a follow-up question - why is it that Western Classical HARMONY tends to sound good to our ears. And it keeps going deeper and deeper - but I believe it all boils down to predictability. (By the way, you imply that other scales sound bad. which is, well, quite wrong)

3) What interests ME more (as the answer to your question seems to be obvious, for some reason - probably something from Psychology I've read hidden deep in my memory hah) is why does extensive conscious exposure to various styles of 'serious' music makes one step outside the box of conventional harmonic techniques sooner or later - to appreciate the more experimental sounds, as well. Why does that engine of predictability gets overriden with experience and the need for the unconventional appears? Curiosity related with experience? Most probably. But why IT appears?

Excuse the digression.


EDIT: f**k, I've just remembered a great example ruining the predictability theory (or does it?) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB669XXjnUg and basically everything written using modal harmony. Also, kinda smashes your question - I haven't seen a person who wouldn't enjoy Kind of Blue. Major scale works fine - others work fine as well - depends on how you use them.

As to why not a random collection of notes - harmonic relation to the background harmony (accompaniment) of the tune.

[Sendy]

3) What interests ME more (as the answer to your question seems to be obvious, for some reason - probably something from Psychology I've read hidden deep in my memory hah) is why does extensive conscious exposure to various styles of 'serious' music makes one step outside the box of conventional harmonic techniques sooner or later - to appreciate the more experimental sounds, as well. Why does that engine of predictability gets overriden with experience and the need for the unconventional appears? Curiosity related with experience? Most probably. But why IT appears?

Excuse the digression.

I think that's just tolerance. Music has to be predictable enough to be engaging, but unpredictable enough to be exciting/stimulating. As a musically-inclined listener listens to more and more of the same school of musical thought and practice it tips the balance towards being too predictable and then new horizons are sought.

In other words, bubblegum pop is a gateway drug to avant garde atonal trumpet-and-randomly-tuned-radio-based musique concrete or something