Diatonic modes vs circle of fifths

[DJ Warmonger]

Let's say I want to make tune that uses all white keys (C Major), but wish to have it in Dorian mode. This means, from what I understand, that the tonic (bass, in fact) becomes D. Does it work this way?

Now, which key is that tune? I believe, since it uses just same keys as C Major, it will be placed as C Major on the circle of fifths - which allows progression to G Major or F Major, for example. Is that right or are there any issues with that approach?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Let's say I want to make tune that uses all white keys (C Major), but wish to have it in Dorian mode. This means, from what I understand, that the tonic (bass, in fact) becomes D. Does it work this way?

Using all the white notes but having D as the central (home) pitch would indeed be Dorian mode, yes.

However, this is then nothing to do with C major. Keys and Modes are different and separate things.

Now, which key is that tune?

It is not in any key.

I believe, since it uses just same keys as C Major, it will be placed as C Major on the circle of fifths - which allows progression to G Major or F Major, for example. Is that right or are there any issues with that approach?

The circle of fifths is a tonal device (relating to keys). It isn't really applicable to modes.

[DJ Warmonger]

Well, I am DJ and use circle of fifths to match the keys of consecutive tracks, as many do. It works well, although probably not all the tunes in existence are in major / minor key and yet they blend together.

Keep in mind if you put any track in auto key analyser, it will answer with either minor or major key. Sometimes it's wrong, but eventually the track can be matched to SOME key. That's why I ask how to interpret different modes.

[Tricky-Loops]

Well, I am DJ and use circle of fifths to match the keys of consecutive tracks, as many do. It works well, although probably not all the tunes in existence are in major / minor key and yet they blend together.

Keep in mind if you put any track in auto key analyser, it will answer with either minor or major key. Sometimes it's wrong, but eventually the track can be matched to SOME key. That's why I ask how to interpret different modes.

If you put a Dorian track into it, would it detect D minor instead?

[DJ Warmonger]

^That's what I would like to do before I actually make a track. Wondering if my scale choice is right.

Indeed there is D minor triad in Dorian mode. However, D minor key contains A# note, which is not white key of C Dorian. This breaks decent progression around circle of fifths, since for example distance from G to C is one note, while from G to Dmin is 2 notes (plus major-minor change).
On the other hand, if we assume it's Dmin, the parallel key becomes D major. I don't use parallel transitions often, but they never let me down so far, always match perfectly even though the set of notes is diferent. In trance (and EDM in general), the key is the bass (duh), which in minor-major transition matches perfectly and blends seemlessly.

Now the reason for these investigations is as follows: once the track is finished, when should I put in in key progression? Where should others put it, since they will never know the mode or my original intent?

[Sendy]

What about accidentals? A song being in a set key doesn't guarantee it will only use diatonic notes. Or *gasp* key changes? This database mentality scares me a bit, because what you gain in convenience, you lose in creative freedom. Sure, nobody is forced to follow the rules for easy categorization, but chances are, if they want to be noticed and big, they'll feel compelled to.

[JumpingJackFlash]

D minor key contains A# note

No it doesn't.
It does contain Bb though.

...which is not white key of C Dorian.

Apples and oranges. As I said before, keys and modes are separate. You're either using the key C major or the mode of D Dorian, it can't be both.

If you're not using keys, then you can't expect "key recognition software" (or tonal devices such as the circle of fifths) to work. Whatever result you get from a key detection, it will be wrong (so it's meaningless).

If you're mixing tracks, then you should go by how well they sound together.

Alternatively, you just throw it in your software and hope for the best (in which case why worry about the theory?)

Or, if you want everything to be nice and simple, forget about modes and just use keys.

[MadBrain]

Yeah, D dorian uses only white keys (the trick to get dorian is to take a minor key and remove a flat/add a sharp).

In practice, D dorian mode is notated as just D minor, with an accidental on the B each time it happens. IRL most minor key songs aren't totally in one scale and freely mix natural minor (Bb C), melodic minor (B C#), harmonic minor (Bb C#) and dorian mode (B C).

As for which keys it can progress to, you should really try them out, but I think G minor and A minor (dorian etc) will work best, and to C and G and F major will work too (Bb major should work too actually).

[DJ Warmonger]

DJ Warmonger wrote:
...which is not white key of C Dorian.

Apples and oranges. As I said before, keys and modes are separate. You're either using the key C major or the mode of D Dorian, it can't be both.

I mean white keys on a keyboard. Can't help there is one word in English to name two different things Maybe using "white notes" would be more precise.

If two tracks use all the same notes, they have to match - no other way. The question is, what happens if they don't. From what you said now, set based on key progression may fail if the track is in mode which is not any major or minor key.

If you're mixing tracks, then you should go by how well they sound together.

Yes, but I would like to know that before I actually start to mix tracks, especially when playing live and having dozens of tunes in database. Many DJs play tracks that they think will sound together (I used to do the same), but they end up nowhere since they are in very different keys, even though sound feels similiar. On the other hand, two tracks in same key can have very different feel.

[jancivil]

the trick to get dorian is to take a minor key and remove a flat/add a sharp).

In practice, D dorian mode is notated as just D minor, with an accidental on the B each time it happens. IRL most minor key songs aren't totally in one scale and freely mix natural minor (Bb C), melodic minor (B C#), harmonic minor (Bb C#) and dorian mode (B C).

I don't know of anything that gives key signature with a sign such as Bb if the content is clearly D dorian which does_not have that note. Never_heard_of_it. 'In practice'? What practice?

The 'trick is' to think of something the thing ISN'T and alter it? Why this extra step? It is this set of notes on this tonic. It's clear in and of itself, but this complicates it. Already there is a confusion of C major with D dorian, and it appears that has yet to be sorted. Now there is D minor and 'removal of B flat'. D dorian is Tonic [=D], major 2, minor 3, P4, P5, major 6, minor 7. A thing, itself. These coincidences do not define it. "Minor Key" naturally has a sixth degree that is a semitone from the fifth degree, aka 'minor sixth'. Dorian has a 'major sixth' per the tonic. We do not actually need to go through the other thing. You may have learned it through that, but that is inessential.

As per the above discussion, 'key detection': if the software does this objectively and accurately based in the notes content, seems 'the key' for D Dorian should be C major. Whether or not this is a happy coincidence I can't say, but the 'tonic' for the thing is D. If you want close relationships, sure, cycle of fifths, what's next to no sharps/flats? One sharp or flat. I don't know why on earth using your ear is too much to ask, but I don't know why a lot of people do a lot of things they way they do.

[jancivil]

...which is not white key of C Dorian.

Apples and oranges. As I said before, keys and modes are separate. You're either using the key C major or the mode of D Dorian, it can't be both.

I mean white keys on a keyboard. Can't help there is one word in English to name two different things Maybe using "white notes" would be more precise.

D Dorian is a precise term. C major is a precise term. They are not two terms for one thing. This is not a property of the English language. C major and D dorian are what they are in any language.

They are two different things which should rightly have two different names. 'All white keys' is insufficient to define them. The term with 'C' at the front of it denotes a set that is centered on C. The term with 'D' at the front of it denotes a set that is centered on D.

[jancivil]

If you're mixing tracks, then you should go by how well they sound together.

Yes, but I would like to know that before I actually start to mix tracks, especially when playing live and having dozens of tunes in database. Many DJs play tracks that they think will sound together (I used to do the same), but they end up nowhere since they are in very different keys, even though sound feels similiar. On the other hand, two tracks in same key can have very different feel.

What is suggested there, I believe, is that you should be ready to identify the tracks - in terms of key, or matching note content here vis a vis '_ mode' - by your ear.

This would make you a more skillful DJ. You seem to be resisting this in favor of data for a machine to sort it for you, safely. That isn't knowing it, that is some information. What does 'many DJs think that...' matter? People can know by ear the close vs distant relationships. Musicians do it all the time, it is normative.

[jancivil]

I saw 'C dorian' in here. While this may be a typo, it equally could signal a failure to grasp what the term 'dorian' does here.

It has been said that 'a mode isn't a key'. While this is a property of confounding, eg., C major with D dorian, we have to consider: what do we say about 'D dorian' vis a vis a 'key signature'?

It was asserted that the right key signature for it gives an untrue statement in it, 'B flat'. Even if that is practiced by someone, that's f**ked-up. The true statement is 'no flats nor sharps'.
Is that limited to [can only be true of] C major and A minor? Or A aeolian? No.

So 'C dorian' takes us out of the box of 'piano, white keys'. What key signature is true for it? Two flats. If I wrote some music out to be read, C dorian, there is no problem with Bb, Eb in it. It is the simplest, clearest [the only true] statement in establishing the thing for the reader. Who is misled by it? I can identify it by eye and by ear if it's true enough.

You won't persuade me this isn't true, by any gesture. Such a statement contains a danger of confounding the convention for the thing itself.

Yes, there is conventional thinking about key here, but once we get away from it, that it is just convention is revealed. There can be [there is] some music where the statement 'B is flat, F is sharp' is simply true.
So that's the signature in the beginning. It's done in practice, I guarantee you. And it ought to be.

[Dunbar]

If you are in the Key of C Major and you modulated to the II chord (D minor), the scale would simply be a minor, that's all Dorien is.

If you played Dorein with C as your root note, you'd be in the Key of Bb.

[jancivil]

If you are in the Key of C Major and you modulated to the II chord (D minor), the scale would simply be a minor, that's all Dorien is.

If you played Dorein with C as your root note, you'd be in the Key of Bb.

None of your statements here are true. Dorian mode is what I gave above. "Modulated to the II chord", well, going to the ii chord does not mean we have modulated. If we establish that the tonic - in the stricter term than I have used talking about modes, I mean here the basis for 'key' - is a new tonic, THAT is a 'modulation'.

If the key IS C, 'dorian mode' is not happening. Dorian mode is not a property of the key of C major. Dorian mode absolutely means the set of notes is using D as a center.