Playing in modes

[yairhol]

Hi,
I have a question about utilizing scales with modes.
I use a backing track say in the key of C Major. I play the C Major scale over it emphasizing the C note as the tonal center. Now I play a D-Dorian backing track which is also in the key of C-Major (2nd degree of the C-Major). I decided to play the exact same C-Major scale position as I played over the C-Major backing track only now I'm emphasizing the D-note. Does this mean I'm playing D-Dorian? The sound was dorian but what I've concluded is that the mode sound comes from the chords played over the Major scale. Is that correct?
Could I play the exact same major scale over any mode's chord progression emphasizing the correct note with respect to the mode I'm in and would that count as playing modally?
Thank you.

[Loki Fuego]

There's nothing wrong with that. You could as well play A Minor over C Major backing chords.

[yairhol]

If I want to consciously play D-Dorian, would I just need to be playing the C-Major scale and emphasizing the D note?

[Aroused by JarJar]

The notes of D dorian are d, e, f, g, a, b, c, d, the same notes as the c major scale, but simply running up and down or skipping around while emphasizing the note tonic d is not enough to establish the modal feeling of D dorian (though I gather it's enough for third-rate jazz).

The dorian mode has defining characteristics: a is the dominant and very importantly there's the "minor third but major sixth" feeling. The "authentic" version of the Greensleeves melody where it's "dark" in the lower range and kind of "lilts" up in the higher part is a perfect example of the dorian mode.

So, yes, "white keys d to d" will give the notes, but it won't give the mode, which has to be established by the feeling of the melody.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Something that's important to remember when working in modes with chords- the melody note does not always have to be the tonic note of the chord it is in. For example, you need that major sixth for Dorian (the note b in d dorian), but the triad built on b is diminished (b,d,f), which you might not want (and you almost certainly don't want the movement b,d,f to c,e,g because that will push your tune toward C major). So, you can harmonize the melody b as the fifth of the triad e,g,b, or the third of g,b,d.

[fmr]

Something that's important to remember when working in modes with chords- the melody note does not always have to be the tonic note of the chord it is in. For example, you need that major sixth for Dorian (the note b in d dorian), but the triad built on b is diminished (b,d,f), which you might not want (and you almost certainly don't want the movement b,d,f to c,e,g because that will push your tune toward C major). So, you can harmonize the melody b as the fifth of the triad e,g,b, or the third of g,b,d.

Let me just add that, if the melody is really in the mode of D, it's unlike there will be be a B needing to be harmonized. In that moe, B is usually just a passing note, either as inflexion of C or as a passing from A to C (to D too, maybe).

If using triads at all, I would avoid using the triad G B D since it is somehow strange to the universe of this mode. Therefore, the triad would be either A, C, E or D, F, A, depending where the B is going.

[Aroused by JarJar]

Something that's important to remember when working in modes with chords- the melody note does not always have to be the tonic note of the chord it is in. For example, you need that major sixth for Dorian (the note b in d dorian), but the triad built on b is diminished (b,d,f), which you might not want (and you almost certainly don't want the movement b,d,f to c,e,g because that will push your tune toward C major). So, you can harmonize the melody b as the fifth of the triad e,g,b, or the third of g,b,d.

Let me just add that, if the melody is really in the mode of D, it's unlike there will be be a B needing to be harmonized. In that moe, B is usually just a passing note, either as inflexion of C or as a passing from A to C (to D too, maybe).

If using triads at all, I would avoid using the triad G B D since it is somehow strange to the universe of this mode. Therefore, the triad would be either A, C, E or D, F, A, depending where the B is going.

In D dorian, b (the la) is essential to establishing the dorian mode/mood. So it certainly will appear in a harmonic context if the melody is harmonized.

[yairhol]

If I understand correctly, what you guys are saying is that in order to play in a certain mode one needs the proper backing chords for that mode + correct notes of the mode's major scale + emphasizing the mode root and mode characteristic notes that set it apart from the major scale (example in Dorian would be the flat 3rd and flat 7th). Do I have this right?

[tapper mike]

Stop relying on hypotheticals and start relying on actuals.

If you want to study the dorian mode in action....
Carlos Santana:
Oye yo como va
Black Magic Woman
Samba Pa Ti
Open Invitation
Evil Ways
Some of the above also utilize pentatonic ideas mixing them with dorian modes

The Doobie Brothers - Black Water

This will offer you tseveral things.
1. Context - You'll be playing a song that utllizes the mode which is far more beneficial then simply trying to scale up and down on the mode and hope something happens.
2. A song to play that people can easily recognize.
3. Lines, there are only so many possiblities for the order of melodic playing. Quite often it's the dynamic and meter context which separate one great idea from another. having lines, motif's licks allows you a jumping point for creating your own material simply by varying how you play them.
4. Confidence. Mastering an established song will give you greater confidence when learning other songs or writing your own.

In as far as Jazz goes. If you don't love jazz don't pretent that you do. As well don't think that a distant belief system of what you percieve to be jazz theory actually is or holds water. The music and theory of Allan Holdsworth is not the same as Basie, is not the same as John Coltrane, is not the same Duke Ellington, is not the same as Fatburger and so on.

Trying to learn Jazz from a classicalist is like trying to learn Portuguese from someone who only learned Latin.

[datroof]

Every mode will have its characteristic notes, and those are what you want to emphasize to get at the unique sound of that mode. The characteristic notes for dorian are the major 6th, and major 2nd. Those 2 notes are what differentiate dorian from the other minor modes. One cadence that emphasizes D dorian would be Dmi to Emi. Both chords are diatonic to key of C, and the Emi contains both characteristic notes of D dorian. Try playing around with that Emi sound over your D dorian backing track.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I play a D-Dorian backing track which is also in the key of C-Major

No.
D Dorian shares the same notes as C major, but that is the only similarity. D Dorian is not "in the key of C major" anymore than the key of A minor is.

Modes and keys are different things.

If you've got a backing track that's obviously in C major, then it doesn't really matter what you play (or rather, what you think you're playing) over the top of it, there are only two likely outcomes: It will all be in C major and sound ok, or else it will sound dreadful because it's neither in one thing nor another.
(A pro might be able to do something creative with it, but otherwise it's unlikely).

[datroof]

I play a D-Dorian backing track which is also in the key of C-Major

No.
D Dorian shares the same notes as C major, but that is the only similarity. D Dorian is not "in the key of C major" anymore than the key of A minor is.

Modes and keys are different things.

If you've got a backing track that's obviously in C major, then it doesn't really matter what you play (or rather, what you think you're playing) over the top of it, there are only two likely outcomes: It will all be in C major and sound ok, or else it will sound dreadful because it's neither in one thing nor another.
(A pro might be able to do something creative with it, but otherwise it's unlikely).

I understand the reasons for the semantic dogmatism (and am utterly, totally uninterested in debating the subject), but I've never, ever, in my lifetime as a professional musician/arranger, found it useful to me in any way, whatsoever. And I don't think it helps answer the OP in any way. This stuff is much more emphasized in classical-oriented music education than jazz-oriented music education (which is more my background, although I have plenty of experience in both), and people coming from that classical background seem to find the dogmatism most important to them. Maybe they have a stronger need for the comfort of structure, etc. Whatever. As I said, in real life, I've never found much of it to be useful. I understand modes just fine, but spend zero time worrying about the semantics that you're stressing.

[Loki Fuego]

else it will sound dreadful because it's neither in one thing nor another.

Actually, it might sound great, if done cleverly.

[datroof]

else it will sound dreadful because it's neither in one thing nor another.

Actually, it might sound great, if done cleverly.

Experimenting with sounds like this is a big part of learning to improvise. It doesn't even require much cleverness, really.

[JumpingJackFlash]

Experimenting with sounds like this is a big part of learning to improvise. It doesn't even require much cleverness, really.

Well, how it sounds is of course subjective.
The point is that merely playing the white notes starting on D over an obviously functional chord progression in C major does not make the resulting music "Dorian".