Commonly Used Modal Scales and Chords in Electronic Music

[MfLI]

I'm gonna use you for free too now!

You're welcome.

Seriously... Just point out the flawed chords in the scale... Or go away. I'm not one tad interested in reading your intended goodwill from between the lines after all the crap you have written here so far.

See, this is the problem right here.
You can learn a lot from people on here (not just me), but not only do you refuse to listen, you actually take time to insult us.

As a teacher, I'm happy to help you - the student - but first you have to respect that dynamic, or it's not going to work (that is, you won't learn anything). The sooner you drop the arrogance and start listening, the better off you will be.

Which part of my earlier post didn't you get: "I'm not one tad interested in reading your intended goodwill from between the lines after all the crap you have written here so far."

You see I didn't come here looking for your advice. Nor advice by "jancivil". Take it or leave it. If it insults you then just leave me alone.

You must be some pedagog failing understanding the above.

[JumpingJackFlash]

I didn't come here looking for your advice. Nor advice by "jancivil".

Indeed, but that's what you should have done, and had you done so, I (and others here) would have been more than happy to help you.

But instead, you just wanted to peddle your blog; setting yourself up as an authority on something that you clearly don't understand; misleading others, and when anyone tries to help you, you just stick your fingers in your ears and hum.

You need to be reading what other people have written about this subject before you are qualified to teach it yourself.

[MfLI]

At the start I was actually willing for a moment to give you some leeway. However, When this thread reached page 6 or so and you guys only came up with utter nonsese concerning the actual opening content I understodd what kind of a bunch of people you are.

There are many enough other contributors that openly have stated their opininion reagrding your characters.

So... I really... Really am not interested in learning anything from you.

And believe you me, there is absolutely nothing that would make me changing my mind. Not reagrding ANY topics. Especially after coming to understand the kinds of beliefs and methods and of "teaching" you guys prefer to use. Especially you and "jancivil".

I look at you as people who need medication. Seriously. Not a joke. Go get some.

[Sendy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCH7JjQC4Rc

[ghettosynth]

Let's look at language clearly, as D.Josef indicates: Mindless has an opposite, 'mindful'.
I really expect people will for the most part at least be mindful of a forum and the use of space.

Oh please, It's not your forum and you are anything but mindful.

I think it's in the rules here, to look for a thread with your issue a bit first. It is normal etiquette for a forum in any case.

You talking about "etiquette" is hilarious. You're bringing out the rulebook, and you're serious? Here's rule number TWO for you:

Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will result in your post being edited / deleted, and you may be issued with a warning and / or a ban.

I'm not sure how you could miss that one?

There are so many iterations of this topic more or less identical to this, so we have had to rehash what is in a thread just next to this for the benefit of a guy that can't be arsed to find even that, or he doesn't care?

OMG, oh noes, a repost? Oh, the poor dear, whatever shall we do, she's had to suffer reading a post that she's not interested in AGAIN! Oh, that's terrible? Well, let's do something about that, after all, it never happens in the other forums, right? We never have to read "What's your top five favorite synths" over and over again?

Are you serious? Seriously?

I predicted that he won't learn. He is interested in justifying himself rather,

I predicted you'd blow a gasket when someone insulted your intelligence, I further predict that you'll continue to blame others for your own limitations.

Of course 'ghettosynth' the cherry-picker gets right behind these moves.

There's no need to cherry pick your rudeness, there's some in virtually every post.

I think that this might be the most telling post of the entire thread:

When "jancivil" first came across I actually thought it was an April fools prank... Apparently not These people seem to be totally serious.

Now, that's funny, no, I mean that's really funny. This sub-forum seems to live in its own tiny little crazy world.

[ghettosynth]

I didn't come here looking for your advice. Nor advice by "jancivil".

Indeed, but that's what you should have done, and had you done so, I (and others here) would have been more than happy to help you.

Get off your high horse dude, you aren't the local king. You're just some guy with a hardon for church modes.

But instead, you just wanted to peddle your blog;

Again, SO WHAT?

You need to be reading what other people have written about this subject before you are qualified to teach it yourself.

Welcome to the real world where people don't fit into your fantasy. Nobody is required to conform to your view before they post here.

[ghettosynth]

* - Contrary to ghettosynth's interpretation, mindlessly here doesn't mean "stupidly", or "while also being stupid", but instead it means "without thought".

Does "shite" and "idiot" mean something different as well?

That, in itself, is an act against all known forum etiquette. Then, when you were called out, you began a psychological game of shifting around and trying to come out of the whole thing looking as good as you can, which, I think, is the pinnacle of trolldom.

Amateur.

well older people can be aggressive as hell"

A much more accurate characterization is simply that some people are rude.

[JumpingJackFlash]

At the start I was actually willing for a moment to give you some leeway. However, When this thread reached page 6 or so and you guys only came up with utter nonsese concerning the actual opening content I understodd what kind of a bunch of people you are.

To what "utter nonsese concerning the actual opening content" are you referring to?

In actual fact (unlike jancivil with whom I think you are confusing me), I have really had to bite my tongue here and try to be as patient with you as possible. But the fact remains that your opening content itself was "utter nonsense".

There are many enough other contributors that openly have stated their opininion reagrding your characters.

Now you're insulting my character? - This is a personal attack now and I take offence. I have tried to be helpful, you haven't listened. I don't need anything from you here, you on the other hand need an education.

And incidentally, I doubt you'll find many others here ready to sully my character. Admittedly I have become somewhat frustrated with you here, but that's because you are incredibly arrogant, you consistently refuse to listen, and you have now resorted to petty insults.

I really... am not interested in learning

Therein lies your problem.

...Especially after coming to understand the kinds of beliefs and methods and of "teaching" you guys prefer to use.

Like what exactly? If you can't take honest and valid criticism, then don't post blogs. Simple.

I look at you as people who need medication. Seriously. Not a joke. Go get some.

More insults. Your attitude stinks; reminiscent of a baby who has started throwing his toys out of the pram because his parents won't let him have any ice cream.

Get off your high horse dude, you aren't the local king. You're just some guy with a hardon for church modes.

No, I'm a fully qualified music teacher with several years of successful experience. In other words, I know what I'm talking about. By no means am I the only one though.

SO WHAT?

Is is incorrect information which will only confuse people.

Nobody is required to conform to your view before they post here.

It's not posting here that I have a problem with. It's someone trying to teach something that they don't understand themselves whilst persistently refusing to listen to people with more knowledge than them. It's irresponsible, as has been explained before.

[ghettosynth]

That actually makes it EASIER to make. The music theory that covers that is rather simple compared to all the other stuff out there. It's stuff every garage rocker knows

So to bring this back home, tell us what garage rockers know about modes?

Tonnes.

The Ramones, The Romantic, Sponge, Kid Rock, Bob Seger, Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels, ICP, on and on and on. All started as garage/basement musicians.

The thing is they know modes pragmatically (what works for them) In the context of Rock you only need use what applies to what you are doing right now.
Kenny Olson - http://kennyolson.com/kobio/
I know this guy. He taught here - http://www.musiccastle.com/mainFrame-1.htm
Along with Joey Mazolla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_(band)

They both taught students how to play rock using modes. It's not rocket science.

Many of his lessons were about how modes are used to develop riffs and leads over various progressions. When he started out he took what he needed and left what he didn't for another day. Same with many others.


Here is a clear cut example of playing modes in rock.
Johnny B Goode by Chuck Berry.
There are only three chords in the song, All of them are major. Bb-Eb-F The key is Bb. Chuck Berry does not use the Bb major (ionian) mode to solo over the progression. He uses mostly the Bb Mixolydian mode.
mostly as in 95 percent of all the notes in the song are directly from the mixolydian scale. the rest are neighboring tones as blues rock guys can tend to mix and match pentatonics with diatonics.

When one actually learns songs one gains a pragmatic approach. It may not be the original usage approach as cast in stone centuries gone by but creating music shouldn't be about waiting your turn and following everyone else's rules to make them happy. It's more about learning enough to satisfy your needs.

Nice post, thanks.

[MfLI]

That actually makes it EASIER to make. The music theory that covers that is rather simple compared to all the other stuff out there. It's stuff every garage rocker knows

So to bring this back home, tell us what garage rockers know about modes?

Tonnes.

The Ramones, The Romantic, Sponge, Kid Rock, Bob Seger, Mitch Ryder and the Detroit Wheels, ICP, on and on and on. All started as garage/basement musicians.

The thing is they know modes pragmatically (what works for them) In the context of Rock you only need use what applies to what you are doing right now.
Kenny Olson - http://kennyolson.com/kobio/
I know this guy. He taught here - http://www.musiccastle.com/mainFrame-1.htm
Along with Joey Mazolla http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sponge_(band)

They both taught students how to play rock using modes. It's not rocket science.

Many of his lessons were about how modes are used to develop riffs and leads over various progressions. When he started out he took what he needed and left what he didn't for another day. Same with many others.

Here is a clear cut example of playing modes in rock.
Johnny B Goode by Chuck Berry.
There are only three chords in the song, All of them are major. Bb-Eb-F The key is Bb. Chuck Berry does not use the Bb major (ionian) mode to solo over the progression. He uses mostly the Bb Mixolydian mode.
mostly as in 95 percent of all the notes in the song are directly from the mixolydian scale. the rest are neighboring tones as blues rock guys can tend to mix and match pentatonics with diatonics.

When one actually learns songs one gains a pragmatic approach. It may not be the original usage approach as cast in stone centuries gone by but creating music shouldn't be about waiting your turn and following everyone else's rules to make them happy. It's more about learning enough to satisfy your needs.

it takes less then an hour to understand how modes work in a rock context if you are willing to commit yourself to applying yourself. That understanding can easily be lost without applying the method later on.

Learn the mode, learn a song that uses the mode. Understand that the song can use other elements and don't disregard them. Apply the mode to your own improvisation. Later if you actually did learn the mode you will begin to recognize it in other songs as well you may learn riffs, licks, lines which are either wholly or partially derived from that mode.

Here is another example of using modes....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zzqi_958qU
Skip to about 4:50
Freddie King is using a minor mode (minor pentatonic) against Major Chords. This minor against major creates the opporitunity for tension and resolution. It is a different approach to modes then Johnny B Goode and is explained in the RockSchool video a publication of the BBC from the 80's
Modes used in different contexts will affect different characteristics. However modes are but only a portion of the greater picture. Timing and technique. There is no golden secret of modes, no super mystery to unlock. There is only context.

Bizet's Carmen is resplendent with Chromaticism as is Chicago's 25 or 6 to Four. Does that make 25 or 6 to 4 sound more like Carmen then any other song by Chicago? No because the context is different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vr2mUM_qL6s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXb8ZDuICCs
I've already over explained it Too much explanation and contradiction defeat the purpose of learning how to play modes. A more practical and long term solution is simply to take a few minutes out of your playing day to improvise over the given mode and always try to incormporate some type of variance in expression such as timing technique etc. Drawing from what you hear and can learn by playing songs that incorporate them.

Thinking about modes too much while not applying them enough is like staring at your feet while trying to walk.

There is another matter which needs to be addressed in this thread which is fear.

When I first tried to play leads I was always afraid that I didn't know enough or I wasn't good enough and maybe with more knowledge I'd be a better player. That isn't necessarily true. If you are afraid that you have to have everything dead perfect before you can play anything it's a destructive force that closes off your potential. Playing scales and modes offers at first a chance to alieve fears by strengthening technique. It's not the end of the world to practice scales/modes for a few minutes every day while you work out the physical connection between hands and mind. You'll find you have to think less and play more consistently (anything not just scales) if you do. That's a decision you have to make for yourself. Are you in earnest wanting to be a better musician? Are you willing to learn from others? Can you enjoy performing works of others who you may enjoy listening to?

Fear stifles creativity it does not enhance it. Fear feeds on fear. Success feeds on success. You build on successes by putting fear to the side and focusing on what you want to accomplish not by avoiding what you don't want to.

Thank you. Very interesting stuff.

[ghettosynth]

No, I'm a fully qualified music teacher with several years of successful experience. In other words, I know what I'm talking about. By no means am I the only one though.

Again, so what? This is a forum for conversation, not your classroom.

SO WHAT?

Is is incorrect information which will only confuse people.

And if this were your classroom, that might matter, here, it doesn't give you any authority.

Nobody is required to conform to your view before they post here.

It's not posting here that I have a problem with. It's someone trying to teach something that they don't understand themselves whilst persistently refusing to listen to people with more knowledge than them.

Happens all the time in real life, get over it. Look, I get it, I get frustrated when people misrepresent facts or ideas that are in my wheelhouse. I can assure you, however, that playing the "I'm an expert card" will often fall on deaf ears. Really, as an instructor you should know this.

It's irresponsible, as has been explained before.

I disagree with you, as explained before. This isn't even wikipedia. It's a forum for conversation.

It's irresponsible to publish that sort of information in an academic paper or a textbook, it's just "annoying" when posted on the internet.

[Tricky-Loops]

Maybe our professional music teachers could post at least on page 10 WHAT's exactly wrong with his approach? (I know, he mixes up modes, keys and chords but maybe someone can explain it to him without any insults - I thought that's the job of music teachers?)

[JumpingJackFlash]

Maybe our professional music teachers could post at least on page 10 WHAT's exactly wrong with his approach? (I know, he mixes up modes, keys and chords but maybe someone can explain it to him without any insults - I thought that's the job of music teachers?)

Initially, I would have been happy to. And I made several attempts to do so in my initial posts over the first few pages. If someone has an open mind and a degree of humility, then I'm happy to help them in any way I can.

But it's not very likely now. If someone refuses to listen and learn something, then there's nothing I can do.

In any case, people literally spend years learning and practising this kind of stuff. You aren't going to become proficient at it simply by reading posts on a forum, blog or other Internet site.

In this case, it's not simply a matter of correcting punctuation and grammar (to use an analogy), there are fundamental issues that need to be addressed. There are no quick fixes here; I can't sort out every misconception in a few paragraphs. Learning takes time, patience and hard work.

[jancivil]

Let's look at language clearly, as D.Josef indicates: Mindless has an opposite, 'mindful'.
I really expect people will for the most part at least be mindful of a forum and the use of space.

Oh please, It's not your forum and you are anything but mindful.

What happened here? I actually addressed the issue! I have never come on and flamed someone as you are doing now. All of my remarks function in dealing with the material. You're a giant hypocrite.

I think it's in the rules here, to look for a thread with your issue a bit first. It is normal etiquette for a forum in any case.

You talking about "etiquette" is hilarious. You're bringing out the rulebook, and you're serious? Here's rule number TWO for you:

Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users. Flaming or abusing users in any way will not be tolerated and will result in your post being edited / deleted, and you may be issued with a warning and / or a ban.

What are you doing?! I have responded to what you're doing. You are now assuming to moderate this forum to suit yourself and to justify your own flaming, and as a symptom of faring poorly at these stupid arguments. This is the discourse that will get this thing locked! Good god. If this is how it is I can't have the space, ever, to point out your incomptence or remark in observation of the obvious lameness and stupidity and pointlessness of your arguments. Or call someone out for bullshit. Everything goes in service of the principle of pussyfooting around? Yet you seem to have no filter at all. You're not arguing for sense or any idea, you're a wildman trying to hurt a person.
I did say 'you have little business here', which I believe. You don't add a thing, what you do is find an opportunity like this one to do this thing. Then you did something "You have no business talking to humans but that doesn't stop you" - I have been banned for two months for A LOT less than that.
And now you simply cannot take a statement in its context. You aren't doing ANYTHING but fighting with me as a person now. THIS is pure flaming. But no, do school me on what that is - BY EXAMPLE.

There are so many iterations of this topic more or less identical to this, so we have had to rehash what is in a thread just next to this for the benefit of a guy that can't be arsed to find even that, or he doesn't care?

OMG, oh noes, a repost? Oh, the poor dear, whatever shall we do, she's had to suffer reading a post that she's not interested in AGAIN! Oh, that's terrible? Well, let's do something about that, after all, it never happens in the other forums, right? We never have to read "What's your top five favorite synths" over and over again?

Are you serious? Seriously?

Yes. Why are you trying to make a normative seem ridiculous? This is a remark with context. I'm not the only person that thinks it. It gets remarked on the other forums, but NOW here's more fodder for your cannon in this childish vengeance you are driven to wreak upon me. I don't think I've been ridiculous at all. I think this display is, though.

I predicted that he won't learn. He is interested in justifying himself rather,

I predicted you'd blow a gasket when someone insulted your intelligence, I further predict that you'll continue to blame others for your own limitations.

What limitations are those? Who am I blaming and for what? What do you mean 'insulted your intelligence'? Did someone say I was stupid? The one person called me and JJF idiots that were pretending to be experts and we can see my reply and judge for ourselves what my mental state is there.* I would place the phrase 'you insult my intelligence' towards what you have done, this stupid argumentation - which is rude, disrespectful - this fallacious, and dishonest cherry-picking in ad hominem - taking the side of a person honestly losing, & as though just to make war - in lieu of even trying to grasp the material. You thought you'd get over with such CRAP?
And you continue to compound it with desperate recourse again and again. You know it's going badly for you so you get worse and worse with the flaming.

You're kind of out of your mind, now, aren't you? And this attack goes on for a bit. Where you totally illustrate my point as to your resentment, such as of this forum.
My energy isn't fueled by this insane anger, so knock yourself out.

*
//Let me take this opportunity to address that more fully. All of modal practice, in Western Europe based in the Church and the development of plainchant into polphony, to a little further east and both forms of Indian Classical Music, to Arabic and Persian music and their offshoots, has been melodic music rather than harmonic. Palestrina did not have the major/minor paradigm before him and was not dealing with stacking triads on seven, or six tones. That is completely wrong. That post with that particular desperate appeal to authority only showed putting triads to scale tones. It not only does not refute my or JJF's points, it illustrates the main point that there is a thing in doing seven triadic harmonies in a mode we avoid, for good reason. I have said, more than once, sure you can use some chords to enhance a mode. I would typically go to how a thing is used and make some point about the music. If the chord brings out something in the mode - EG: i - IV in Dorian, The Carlos Santana Secret Chord Progression - here's something to do. There is little point in that particular post and that quote, though. We already have that bit.//

[jancivil]

Maybe our professional music teachers could post at least on page 10 WHAT's exactly wrong with his approach? (I know, he mixes up modes, keys and chords but maybe someone can explain it to him without any insults - I thought that's the job of music teachers?)

We have done exactly this NUMEROUS times.
He's been given a lot to work with through this thread, but no.
WTF, even as you reiterate what's exactly wrong with his approach you demand that we do it some more again. So clearly this gesture isn't more than an insult. You wouldn't last a day in my world with this pagro, cutesy way of thinking you disguise your insults. Go away.