Flats and sharps?

[thomni]

Hey there.

I've got a sort-of take on the blues scale going, and to put it on paper I have to write it

Eb - F# - G# - A - Bb - C# - D (better if used sparingly while ascending.)

Root - Augmented Second - Augmented Third - Augmented Fourth - Perfect Fifth - Augmented Sixth - Major Seventh

It seems very unconventional to me, but it sounds right and it's got all 7 letters (notes? tones? keys?) of the scale.


So, do scales normally utilize sharps AND flats? Is there a better way to write this scale?

[Hink]

So, do scales normally utilize sharps AND flats? Is there a better way to write this scale?

depends on the scale...for instance C Maj and A minor (the relative minor of C major) do not use any sharps or flats...but yes most scales will need some sharps and/or flats to keep the pattern/ keep the piece in key.

Major scale in terms of steps is wholes step, whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step, whole step, 1/2 step. Now if you look at a piano and start on a "C", you will see this pattern in just white keys only. Now let's go to D Major insted of C major, if you count the steps like I described above you will see you will need to use black keys (sharps and/or flats) in order to keep the pattern (WW1/2WWW1/2)...this of course is the most basic explanation and there is a lot more to learn about scales but as it seems you are just beginning I hope this helps get you started. I would look at the circle of fifths and do some reading there. The amount of sharps/flats is what defines the key signature so I would do some research on key signatures as well.

I think it would great if we had stickies for some of this in this forum for basics like this, we all start somewhere and stickies might make it easier for folks to narrow down their questions to more specific points of confusion...

[JumpingJackFlash]

Eb - F# - G# - Ab - Bb - C# - D (better if used sparingly while ascending.)

Root - Augmented Second - Augmented Third - Augmented Fourth - Perfect Fifth - Augmented Sixth - Major Seventh

Firstly, are you sure you wrote that correctly?

Because G# and Ab will sound the same in equal temperament.
Also, Ab is a "perfect fourth" above Eb rather than an "augmented fourth".

[thomni]

depends on the scale...for instance C Maj and A minor (the relative minor of C major) do not use any sharps or flats...but yes most scales will need some sharps and/or flats to keep the pattern/ keep the piece in key.

Major scale in terms of steps is wholes step, whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step, whole step, 1/2 step. Now if you look at a piano and start on a "C", you will see this pattern in just white keys only. Now let's go to D Major insted of C major, if you count the steps like I described above you will see you will need to use black keys (sharps and/or flats) in order to keep the pattern (WW1/2WWW1/2)...this of course is the most basic explanation and there is a lot more to learn about scales but as it seems you are just beginning I hope this helps get you started. I would look at the circle of fifths and do some reading there. The amount of sharps/flats is what defines the key signature so I would do some research on key signatures as well.

I think it would great if we had stickies for some of this in this forum for basics like this, we all start somewhere and stickies might make it easier for folks to narrow down their questions to more specific points of confusion...

I appreciate your well-written reply, but I'm sorry, I do not think you understood my post.I agree with you about stickying some basics though.

I'm not exactly a novice to theory or keyboards, but I'm wondering when notating, do both sharps and flats belong in the scale? The blues scale I referenced is very unusual (having to include both sharps and flats in notation), and maybe it's more jazz theory convention than classical, but for instance some variants on Major (e.g. "C#" major) are written as Db to avoid things like an E# and B#. I'm not on about black and white keys-- just about enharmonically, does this seem right?


Only a brief inquiry, I suppose.

Thanks

[thomni]

Eb - F# - G# - Ab - Bb - C# - D (better if used sparingly while ascending.)

Root - Augmented Second - Augmented Third - Augmented Fourth - Perfect Fifth - Augmented Sixth - Major Seventh

Firstly, are you sure you wrote that correctly?

Because G# and Ab will sound the same in equal temperament.
Also, Ab is a "perfect fourth" above Eb rather than an "augmented fourth".

Ahhh!!! You caught a crucial mistake, thank you!
Yes, the Ab should be a natural A!

[JumpingJackFlash]

Yes, the Ab should be a natural A!

In that case, the scale can apparently be called "Chromatic Hypophrygian" (I don't know any more though, you could try Googleing it).

Regarding flats and sharps in the same scale, it is possible and sometimes unavoidable. The most obvious (Western) examples would be some of the Harmonic Minor scales. G harmonic minor for example has Bb and Eb, but also F#.

What you have to remember is that most of the "rules" you might have come across were derived from what we might loosely call "Western classical music" or the "Common Practice Period" (very roughly music from 1600-1900). (So, in any major scale for example, you certainly would never have both sharps and flats.) However, the further you stray from that sphere of influence, the less relevant those "rules" become.

A good thing to bear in mind is how easy the music is to read. - Whenever possible, go for the simplest solution. There is also the school of thought that you should use sharps when ascending and flats when descending, but this too will have exceptions.

[Hink]

depends on the scale...for instance C Maj and A minor (the relative minor of C major) do not use any sharps or flats...but yes most scales will need some sharps and/or flats to keep the pattern/ keep the piece in key.

Major scale in terms of steps is wholes step, whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step, whole step, 1/2 step. Now if you look at a piano and start on a "C", you will see this pattern in just white keys only. Now let's go to D Major insted of C major, if you count the steps like I described above you will see you will need to use black keys (sharps and/or flats) in order to keep the pattern (WW1/2WWW1/2)...this of course is the most basic explanation and there is a lot more to learn about scales but as it seems you are just beginning I hope this helps get you started. I would look at the circle of fifths and do some reading there. The amount of sharps/flats is what defines the key signature so I would do some research on key signatures as well.

I think it would great if we had stickies for some of this in this forum for basics like this, we all start somewhere and stickies might make it easier for folks to narrow down their questions to more specific points of confusion...

I appreciate your well-written reply, but I'm sorry, I do not think you understood my post.I agree with you about stickying some basics though.

I'm not exactly a novice to theory or keyboards, but I'm wondering when notating, do both sharps and flats belong in the scale? The blues scale I referenced is very unusual (having to include both sharps and flats in notation), and maybe it's more jazz theory convention than classical, but for instance some variants on Major (e.g. "C#" major) are written as Db to avoid things like an E# and B#. I'm not on about black and white keys-- just about enharmonically, does this seem right?


Only a brief inquiry, I suppose.

Thanks

apologies

[cryophonik]

A good thing to bear in mind is how easy the music is to read. - Whenever possible, go for the simplest solution.

And, with that, keep in mind that your scale will (presumably) be used in an applied manner, within the perspective of a key signature. So, while the notation for your scale seems appropriate, albeit with an unavoidable mixture of flats and sharps, the combination of flats/sharps would be less obvious in the context of a score because you'd presumably give it a key signature of the nearest major/minor based on the tonic (in your case, probably Eb minor), and notate the relevant notes with the appropriate accidental (i.e., sharp and natural) symbols. That makes the music easier to read than using no flats or sharps in the key signature and, instead, splattering the score with flats and sharps.

[Quietinthedark]

Yes, the Ab should be a natural A!

In that case, the scale can apparently be called "Chromatic Hypophrygian" (I don't know any more though, you could try Googleing it).

Regarding flats and sharps in the same scale, it is possible and sometimes unavoidable. The most obvious (Western) examples would be some of the Harmonic Minor scales. G harmonic minor for example has Bb and Eb, but also F#.

What you have to remember is that most of the "rules" you might have come across were derived from what we might loosely call "Western classical music" or the "Common Practice Period" (very roughly music from 1600-1900). (So, in any major scale for example, you certainly would never have both sharps and flats.) However, the further you stray from that sphere of influence, the less relevant those "rules" become.

A good thing to bear in mind is how easy the music is to read. - Whenever possible, go for the simplest solution. There is also the school of thought that you should use sharps when ascending and flats when descending, but this too will have exceptions.

Not disagreeing, I've frankly never heard of that designation. These both could well be correct.

But the probably more googleable thing that scale is called is a Hungarian Minor (though you are missing the f natural)

Fairly common in Roma music and eastern european folk stuff.

Other than that, +1 good advice.

[JumpingJackFlash]

But the probably more googleable thing that scale is called is a Hungarian Minor (though you are missing the f natural)

They're not really the same thing:

OP's scale is: Eb-Gb-G#-A-Bb-C#-D

Hungarian Minor would be: Eb-F-Gb-A-Bb-Cb-D

(Differences are in bold).

[Quietinthedark]

But the probably more googleable thing that scale is called is a Hungarian Minor (though you are missing the f natural)

They're not really the same thing:

OP's scale is: Eb-Gb-G#-A-Bb-C#-D

Hungarian Minor would be: Eb-F-Gb-A-Bb-Cb-D

(Differences are in bold).

oh snap. You are correct. Sorry OP. I shouldnt post tired.

[jancivil]

Eb - F# - G# - A - Bb - C# - D (better if used sparingly while ascending.)

Root - Augmented Second - Augmented Third - Augmented Fourth - Perfect Fifth - Augmented Sixth - Major Seventh

Well, the sound of this just as a row is rather 'blues' to me, so the spelling seems exotic even as you have forced it into consecutive letter names like it's a seven note scale.

An augmented second in a row like this is going to sort of resolve into a major third. Eb F# G. This going to G# is pretty much going to sound like Eb Gb Ab, at least at first glance. So, as you like it, but is there someone else that will need to see it to work with it?

Applying scale names to it doesn't interest me. But I wonder if the C# is really an augmented sixth to D. That sort of ideation is contextual. It might be, I can't be sure until I hear what you're doing with it.
If you're doing say an emphasis on D (rather than D as a passing note between Db and Eb) and the line is typically Bb C# D, that would be legitimately aug 6th, resembling Eb F# G. I see this 'sparingly while ascending' which looks like something one would say about a raga, so it may be that sort of idea. Kind of not buying F#, absent a G natural, as a meaningful distinction from Gb, though.

Does 'A' feel passing, like a blues b5 to 4 and then a leading note to 5? That would tend to reinforce my sense of G# as more Ab. IE: is that G# pretty much '4' or isn't it.
So our answers have to be contextual and meaningful as per the usage.

[jancivil]

depends on the scale

I appreciate your well-written reply, but I'm sorry, I do not think you understood my post.

I'm wondering when notating, do both sharps and flats belong in the scale? The blues scale I referenced is very unusual (having to include both sharps and flats in notation), and maybe it's more jazz theory convention than classical, but for instance some variants on Major (e.g. "C#" major) are written as Db to avoid things like an E# and B#. I'm not on about black and white keys-- just about enharmonically, does this seem right?

There is no problem per se with C# major. There is nothing wrong per se with E# and B#. Key sig of C# major = 7 sharps.
There might be practical considerations as to particular usage and contexts. That thing as Db is going to be more agreeable to horn players, whose instruments are built naturally to flat keys, Eb alto saxophone for instance.
We tend to avoid a key such as G# major because there will be a double sharp in the key sig, Fx. But people have reasons in their mind for spellings as though meaningful in the context and in thought.

Eb - F# - G# - A - Bb - C# - D

I missed that you called it a blues scale. If it is, what I said above is going to be more generally useful as far as conveying the thing to someone else.
1; b3, P4; #4 before 5 or b5 before 4; P5; M6; b7; ^7.
Eb; Gb; Ab; A or Bbb; Bb; C; Db; D.

If there is a real aug second, and a real aug sixth, those sharps are meaningful. It's a blues type set based in Eb, the sharps are avoidable. The one caveat there is that F# might be a sharp nine in a E7#9 chord. Eb G Db F# is a legit spelling.