Your thoughts on modes

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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BlackWinny wrote:Once again... Mickael Hewitt.

A very good book of four hundred pages for only $3 in its numeric edition!!!
SPAMTASTIC

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janiksutice wrote:
JumpingJackFlash wrote:The title of the thread ("non-Western modes") is a bit ambiguous. Dorian, Lydian and so on are Western modes (they were used long before the Major/Minor key system came into existence).
I'm sorry for the misleading title, my teacher keeps referring to those modes as 'non-western', so I thought it's right.
For instance, six of the 'ecclesiastical' modes are found as Hindustani Thaats. Locrian, which I don't think there's any reality to in medieval music, doesn't work for North Indian as it has a flat fifth in place of the 'perfect'. So they might be 'non-western', just not exclusively so.

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jancivil wrote:
BlackWinny wrote:Once again... Mickael Hewitt.

A very good book of four hundred pages for only $3 in its numeric edition!!!
SPAMTASTIC
Sorry, it was not aimed at all to be a spam. I've been got by the size of the picture!
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Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
I'm now severely diseased since September 2018.

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This book is really, really nice for the initiation (and also much more) of all the exotic scales and modes of the world. I'm currently reading it, and I wanted to signal its existence... and I've been got by the size of the picture.
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Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
I'm now severely diseased since September 2018.

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Modes can indeed be about the chord movement.

If a melody is derived from the phrygian mode it is extremely unlikely to be a 1-IV-V progression.
Simply using modes can and does often alter the harmonic landscape of a progression.

Modal Interchange is a means (of many) where by reharmonization occurs outside the confines of the original diatonic scale/mode

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/jazz-altered-chords
http://www.berklee.edu/bt/131/reharmonizing.html

With McCoy Tyner the lines are blurred. Did he outline the melody with pentatonic modes and then superimpose non diatonic quartal harmonies. Or did he write the non diatonic quartal harmonies first then create melodies that supported the harmonic motion based on the easily to facilitate pentatonic scale?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvB1P7_aGZA

It's all annotated and we both see and here non diatonic chord progressions where one would wonder where the key of the song is as the pentatonic modes change throughout the song to support the harmonic structures.

Here is a misconception about pentatonic scales that being there are only two
Minor7: 1=b3-4-5-b7
Major6: 1-2-3-5-6
They are both modes of the same scale and each note in the scale is a node where by it can be used as a mode unto itself.

A less common yet equally valid pentatonic structure yields the
Dominant7 form 1-2-3-5-7
Minor6 form 1-b3-4-5-6 (favored by Robin Ford)

These "shapes" can be superimposed onto less common chord structures to offer "coloration" that would not be derived by conventional diatonic formulations as was the usage that Pat Martino incorporated after his heart attack and had to relearn the guitar or... In a move easily accessible pop/fusion type situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zwyHoOsLlM

Even in a more familiar harmonic structure the scale tones can be used with any major chord that doesn't explicity contain the major 7th or a b9 formation (though feel free to experiment it's your music an you are the person who has final say over whether it's working for you or not)
Last edited by tapper mike on Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tapper mike wrote:Modes can indeed be about the chord movement.

If a melody is derived from the phrygian mode it is extremely unlikely to be a 1-IV-V progression.
Simply using modes can and does often alter the harmonic landscape of a progression.
So you show that chords can be about the mode.

While I think your offerings
tapper mike wrote:Even in a more familiar harmonic structure the scale tones can be used with any major chord that doesn't explicity contain the major 7th or a b9 formation
as to using things for coloration that lie outside the diatonic expectation are very useful,
what you're doing here is confounding scales with modes.

I took a few minutes to look to see what the video is about. It is about the 'Dominant Pentatonic'. It's_a_scale. If A7 is the dominant, 'A mixolydian' is just an extraneous name for 'D major', so I should be glad for small favors when the guy parses that Dominant Pentatonic somewhat from 'Mixolydian'. It is A B C# E G over an A7. It seems so obvious to me that I'm kind of taken aback this is a big thing to prattle on about in a tutorial. It isn't a mode, anyway. It's diatonic, essentially.

The writing on 'Modal Interchange' is about scales on chords and borrowings from other keys.
Modal interchange using bVII (chord V of Eb hence chord VII of the Aeolian mode).
is nonsense, there is no 'hence'. 'bVII' quite suffices, really. It became theory for theory's sake, ie., bullshit. You're inclined to appeal to authority, but understand that this is not authoritative.

In any case, you're showing what scales do to chords. What chords do to a mode, qua a mode (which you aren't really interested in, while the OP is, and typically the context is people trying to sort something out as a basis) is something else. Yes, you won't do IV and V on Phrygian. They don't follow the mode at all. You would, interested in Phrygian qua Phrygian, choose chords to bring out its character. Typically, two chords is quite enough to be frank.

So I totally stand by my remarks, modes are not about chords in the first place. You're doing some special pleading one mo' 'gin in order to go on about these jazzer concepts, which muddies the waters for anybody starting out trying to obtain a basis, 'what about modes'. This stuff you brought in is about scales as they work in keys. I'm fully cognizant of the language barrier with a certain type of jazz person such as yourself that do this, but there is a whole area of music that respects modes in themselves; and as a basic interest you're really talking about other things.
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BlackWinny wrote: I've been got by the size of the picture.
Yeah, sometimes that'll really surprise you. I host images via my Dropbox, so I can actually go back and save a smaller version and that is reflected in what I posted.

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jancivil wrote:
BlackWinny wrote: I've been got by the size of the picture.
Yeah, sometimes that'll really surprise you. I host images via my Dropbox, so I can actually go back and save a smaller version and that is reflected in what I posted.
Done!
Image :tu:
Build your life everyday as if you would live for a thousand years. Marvel at the Life everyday as if you would die tomorrow.
I'm now severely diseased since September 2018.

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jancivil wrote:
tapper mike wrote:Modes can indeed be about the chord movement.

If a melody is derived from the phrygian mode it is extremely unlikely to be a 1-IV-V progression.
Simply using modes can and does often alter the harmonic landscape of a progression.
So you show that chords can be about the mode.
Yes chord progressions can be (but don't have to be) built on mode structures
jancivil wrote: While I think your offerings
tapper mike wrote:Even in a more familiar harmonic structure the scale tones can be used with any major chord that doesn't explicity contain the major 7th or a b9 formation
as to using things for coloration that lie outside the diatonic expectation are very useful,
what you're doing here is confounding scales with modes.
No we are still talking modes. Melodies can be derived from progressions (as well as the inverse of progressions derived from modes) Jazz especially traditional and modern jazz operates on this proposition. You aren't a trad jazz musician, I am. In jazz studies modes are used as a "connect the dots" formula for moving through chord progressions. That's why when you see one of the billion and one "how to play jazz videos or books they are chocked full of modes being used over a chord progression such as but not limited to ii-V-1 it's modes that are used which support the harmonic motion. Sorry you disagree with me and the rest of the trad jazz world. Maybe that's why you don't get jazz. As for the rest you don't get it because... you refuse to apply it. Anything that doesn't fit in your predetermined mindset you reject by any means possible.



jancivil wrote:
The writing on 'Modal Interchange' is about scales on chords and borrowings from other keys.
Modal interchange using bVII (chord V of Eb hence chord VII of the Aeolian mode).
is nonsense, there is no 'hence'. 'bVII' quite suffices, really. It became theory for theory's sake, ie., bullshit. You're inclined to appeal to authority, but understand that this is not authoritative.
.
Again it's something you reject outrigh and try to cover by asserting that it wasn't handed down on high from the gods of your classical perception.

About the author Pete Thomas
Smart guy featured in Sound On Sound http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/a ... _music.htm
Been around the block http://petethomas.co.uk/credits
So yeah he has tonnes of experience and knowledge in the field and graduated with a music degree from South Hampton University. Simply because he chose to share his knowledge with the world directly from his website rather then via an esteemed university that doesn't make him less of an authority on his craft. But I'll reiterate there are more things in the heavens and on the earth (musically) then are dreamt of in your philosophy.


Reject it all you want. I've long since given up hope that you would ever be made a convert. Defend your antiquated belief system, fight for your god. I don't care. I'm not interested in closed minds. My hope is for the explorers looking for different directions to take their music and offer them suggestions for exploration, not flatheads to beat into submission and obedience.
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duplicated post
Last edited by jancivil on Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tapper mike wrote:Maybe that's why you don't get jazz. As for the rest you don't get it because... you refuse to apply it. Anything that doesn't fit in your predetermined mindset you reject by any means possible.
This is what you do, this is why we fight. You need to tell this story about me, 'You don't get jazz'. The evidence is abundant in these pages that I absolutely understand every single thing you've ever said about these things. It isn't really that big an area, frankly. I don't apply bullshit such as I saw here,
This is borrowed from the Aeolian mode of C (based on major scale of Eb)
when it's a f**king Bb7 chord in the context of C. If it's in fact a Dominant 7th chord, it came from Eb. I don't know what it does, he says it's a substitute for V. I don't know that it is through just assertion. C Aeolian is coincidental with Eb major, but it is not that thing and it does not require that thing to be what it is. (That is known, this is knowledge, not religion. But you reject it in favor of bullshit.)
It's not mysterious, it's just bullshit. Keep it simple, stupid.

You're inclined to appeal to authority, but understand that this is not authoritative.
tapper mike wrote: Again it's something you reject outrigh and try to cover by asserting that it wasn't handed down on high from the gods of your classical perception.
Bullshit, Mike. I reject it out of knowing better. You're the one covering, always here. I do not bullshit the group and I won't mislead them prattling on off-topic. Every_single_time modes comes up you subvert the topic to go on and on with what you're interested in. Which isn't modes. I honestly do not believe you know the difference, what a mode the f**k IS. 'My classical perception'? What is that? I went to school for two years, total. I know my shit in areas you don't, is all.

Here's you proving my point about Appeal to Authority. I don't recognize any authority off the guy that said that rubbish above because of what it is. You need this appeal all the time. That's the covering. You can't really meet my points so you talk shit about me and show me some bona fides of someone you agree with. You won't question it, you proceed from a top-down assessment of your skills which is pretty inaccurate, I think.
tapper mike wrote:About the author Pete Thomas
Smart guy featured in Sound On Sound http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb08/a ... _music.htm
Been around the block http://petethomas.co.uk/credits
So yeah he has tonnes of experience and knowledge in the field and graduated with a music degree from South Hampton University.
I couldn't possibly care less. In what field?
He said that a bVII in C is the V in Eb, HENCE it's from C Aeolian. It's too much thinking for something really not complicated. It's bullshit.
If C is the tonic, and it's not modulatory music, sure, Bb is VII of C Aeolian. Or, it's VII of C Dorian. It's really simple. If it's V in Eb, it's this other thing. There is no mystery. I have an enormous musical vocabulary. Don't talk shit about me. Reply to the actual points! I notice in this diatribe here you never once did that.
tapper mike wrote:Reject it all you want. I've long since given up hope that you would ever be made a convert. Defend your antiquated belief system, fight for your god. I don't care. I'm not interested in closed minds. My hope is for the explorers looking for different directions to take their music and offer them suggestions for exploration, not flatheads to beat into submission and obedience.
You're not interested in what a mode is. You have a fundamental confusion that a mode is just a scale. This is willful ignorance. There is no 'god', there is no 'belief system' in me, I have a grasp of something that you are fighting. I don't know why you would, except for this serious need to be right all the time. Such as all the days you stuck to your definition of 'voice leading', even posting a link to a Wiki that proves you wrong, if you could only read it, or grasp it. You are the one with a belief system that's getting in your way of grasping information. You're up your ass in the worst way here.
Last edited by jancivil on Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

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jancivil wrote:You're not interested in what a mode is. You have a fundamental confusion that a mode is just a scale. This is willful ignorance. There is no 'god', there is no 'belief system' in me, I have a grasp of something that you are fighting. I don't know why you would, except for this serious need to be right all the time. Such as all the days you stuck to your definition of 'voice leading', even posting a link to a Wiki that proves you wrong, if you could only read it, or grasp it. You are the one with a belief system that's getting in your way of grasping information. You're up your ass in the worst way here.
This resonated with me so deeply, I wanted to have it as my sig. But alas, I had somehow, overstepped the mark.

I don't know if I was agreeing with you, or vehemently against you, or just in awe of your argument. Whatevers..

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My classical perception, antiquated... Do you really believe that this 'modal interchange' is news to me? It's a chord borrowed from another area. People have done this for centuries.

I'm sorting out a really basic confusion. OF COURSE you agree with the guy that made C Aeolian necessarily a product of Eb major, you make the same, fundamental mistake. Bb7 in C major, he's prattling on about modal interchange. It is a TYPE of 'modal interchange', just as Schubert mixed major mode with minor mode, but C Aeolian is its own thing. It is not Eb major. "V in Eb major" is not useful in consideration of C Aeolian nor vice versa. It's just word salad. Particularly embarassing is the use of 'hence' in the sentence. That is not what 'hence' does in a sentence. bVII in C Aeolian does not follow that it was V in Eb. It's completely sufficient to me to say 'bVII in C'. I don't know how people can proceed with this much crap on their mind. It's verbal wankery, it's all mixed up and it's stated stupidly.

It's not me failing to grasp it, it's me with an acute grip on a misconstruction of terms.
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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codec_spurt wrote:
jancivil wrote:You're not interested in what a mode is. You have a fundamental confusion that a mode is just a scale. This is willful ignorance. There is no 'god', there is no 'belief system' in me, I have a grasp of something that you are fighting. I don't know why you would, except for this serious need to be right all the time. Such as all the days you stuck to your definition of 'voice leading', even posting a link to a Wiki that proves you wrong, if you could only read it, or grasp it. You are the one with a belief system that's getting in your way of grasping information. You're up your ass in the worst way here.
Oh, I just did a quick heads up with my new tattoo artist. I told him: This is what I want done on my arse!

He said:
Er, call me tomorrow before nine, if you are awake, and maybe we can talk about it.

He is such a spoilsport. Then again...

Last time I wanted an ink of Sam Fox riding a Silver Machine, above my right knee.

He is the only guy I know that gets paid good money not to get his needle out.

"I was going to have a tattoo of Lemmy, puking over my left tit. Where is it?"
"Ah well, I didn't do that either. That's another 50 quid".

f**ker.

What a racket.

Then again. I'm ink free and pure as the driven snow. No one would ever know.

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jancivil wrote:
It's not me failing to grasp it, it's me with an acute grip on a misconstruction of terms.
S'Ok, Dude.

Admittance is the first step. You took it.

Big hug.

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