Choruses (Chorii?) are crap!

[Beazlebug]

I agree. Choruses tend to devalue the rest of the song, because you're waiting for them to turn up and basically they better be good because they're the zenith of the song. Unfortunately often they're not. I like plenty of songs but not necessarily the chorus in them.

I can't think of any songs where the chorus was some kind of disappointment after hearing a great verse. Do you have any examples? Just wondering

A few oldies for instance:
Army dreamers by Kate Bush - the chorus seems a bit of a cop out.
The Skids - working for the yankee dollar, great tune but the chorus seems to be an afterthought.

The Beatles, paperback writer, does it really have a chorus as such, not sure.
Ultravox - Vienna
Van Halen - Hot for Teacher

[MadBrain]

Choruses are very common because they combine a few key characteristics:

- "Sandwitch" song structures are nice. If your song has two parts, say A and B, if you have a structure of AB, that sorta sounds like just one thing, then another thing. But if you go ABA, then the return of the A part structures the whole thing and unifies the song together. But then, chances are, your A part can very easily turn out to be a chorus. The same applies to longer or more complex structures: with an ABAB structure for instance, one of them will probably turn out to be a chorus and the other one a verse.

You can prevent this from happening by having no recurring elements, but then it's going to be hard to make the song unified.

Another way to avoid this is to avoid having contrasting sections altogether, and instead use repetition and do the whole build up by adding/removing parts. Admittedly this is a much more common structure (see: tons of electronic music) but it's hard to make it sound very varied IMHO (because you can't use contrasting sections). It's definitively not my bread & butter personally, but it might well be yours!

- Alternating active sections with less active sections is a classic technique - see tons of works by Mozart and zillions of other classic composers. The idea here is that you can't just go all out, all the time - the result will be tiring, and your music will seem less active because it has to compete with the very active music just before and after. An active section will sound more active (and better!) if you put a dull section just before it. And making a section stand out like this might very well turn it into a chorus.

So yeah, choruses are a side effect of many very good song development techniques...

[Bronto Scorpio]

I like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1YM476Pa4o
The "chorus" is instrumental, which is a nice contrast to the verses.

Cheers
Dennis

[jancivil]

So, a part of a 'song' works when it does and fails when it fails? INSIGHTFUL.
I didn't get the memo that there was a rule about having a chorus, as the OP encountered an issue with.

- you couldn't come up with a chorus then you decided you don't need a chorus then state 'choruses are for losers'.

is an apt summation. You felt that choruses are de rigeur but failed to come up with one so a rant is in order about how this is such a bogus requirement.

But it never occurred to me that there was a necessity to any of it. The idea should have an integral form of its own. Which seems so self-evident to me that I would expect a person that believes they are really a songwriter should have it by nature.

[do_androids_dream]

@jancivil - Don't take what I said too seriously - it wasn't meant as a dig at codec spurt in too serious a way - I often find his threads very entertaining

[do_androids_dream]

A few oldies for instance:
Army dreamers by Kate Bush - the chorus seems a bit of a cop out.

That's an interesting one to pick - I've always loved that song for it's delicate feel. The chorus is so 'miniature' - blink and you'll miss it - but I love it for it actually.

[Roman Empire]

Choruses are very common because they combine a few key characteristics:

- "Sandwitch" song structures are nice. If your song has two parts, say A and B, if you have a structure of AB, that sorta sounds like just one thing, then another thing. But if you go ABA, then the return of the A part structures the whole thing and unifies the song together. But then, chances are, your A part can very easily turn out to be a chorus. The same applies to longer or more complex structures: with an ABAB structure for instance, one of them will probably turn out to be a chorus and the other one a verse.

You can prevent this from happening by having no recurring elements, but then it's going to be hard to make the song unified.

Another way to avoid this is to avoid having contrasting sections altogether, and instead use repetition and do the whole build up by adding/removing parts. Admittedly this is a much more common structure (see: tons of electronic music) but it's hard to make it sound very varied IMHO (because you can't use contrasting sections). It's definitively not my bread & butter personally, but it might well be yours!

- Alternating active sections with less active sections is a classic technique - see tons of works by Mozart and zillions of other classic composers. The idea here is that you can't just go all out, all the time - the result will be tiring, and your music will seem less active because it has to compete with the very active music just before and after. An active section will sound more active (and better!) if you put a dull section just before it. And making a section stand out like this might very well turn it into a chorus.

So yeah, choruses are a side effect of many very good song development techniques...

Perfect and very precise!

It´s anyones free choice to leave out a chorus, and a song can still work without it if you´ve found another way to make it dynamically interesting for the brain.

I think it´d be interesting to hear the person that started this threads composition and see if we agree that it works well without a chorus.

Best Regards

Roman Empire

[vurt]

i is a bad example! :muhahaha!:

[Sendy]

I always liked how I'm Still Standing's chorus is in the paralell minor of the verses. AFAIK that's quite a rarity and it really gives an emotional edge to the music and lyrics. Too much modern music doesn't play with shading of major/minor, it picks one and sticks to it.

[Jace-BeOS]

As I've been making some music that's not following the rules I'm assuming are most common for popular music, despite liking choruses myself, I find this thread interesting. I think choruses are partially intended to be the center of a song for the most basic of reasons: it catches people, lets them sing along, and is the memorable part. As a result, a chorus tends to be lyrically simpler.

So here are three of mine with atypical structure (or not?):

No chorus(??) but lots of transitions, does have repeated sections:
http://m.soundcloud.com/dysamoria/the-o ... -3-23-2013

No chorus? The "electronic standard" of adding tracks to build it up:
http://m.soundcloud.com/dysamoria/in-th ... 12-03-2012

No chorus at all:
http://m.soundcloud.com/dysamoria/danci ... of-the-end

I didn't in any way attempt to structure these songs in any specific ways. They came together totally organically, with the vocals written after the music was largely in place or almost finished. But I don't know music theory, and my only goal was to ensure I was creating something with structural dynamics(?) that I enjoyed. So, those of you that DO know theory... What structures are these? If you care to discuss, that is.

Cheers!

[Hink]

gee...here I thought all this time that a chorus was just another name for a refrain

[BlackWinny]

gee...here I thought all this time that a chorus was just another name for a refrain

You know... after 24000 posts, learn a bit of music theory is really helpful.

[Sampleconstruct]

Your link inspired me.

Chorizzo is the way to go.
Eh, if you say so.
Everybody do the... (dramatic pause for effect)
Chorizzo!

This is the moment when, those that can, get their 'sausage' out.

You really don't know what you have started.
Even your grandchildren will hate you for this.

And when they go to school, there won't be Chorizzo no mo'.

You don't eat that shit do you?
f**k.

I come on Kvr for a bit of high brow discussion and I get this.

Oh well.

ROFL

[yevster]

It's always tempting and comfortable to use a familiar structure, both as a thread onto which to place beads of melody, and as a way to avoid alienating a potential listener with an unfamiliar form.

Still, there have been some daring and respectable "violations" of the form. Keane's Atlantic is probably the most incredible example. There is a definite hook in the end, but it's as if the entire song is a verse building up to a single chorus. It's unusual but effective.

The worst thing, IMHO, is to dismiss a form for being "conventional" without first having mastered it. if have written a fair share of catchy, memorable songs in the conventional form, by all means, move on and explore. If you haven't, perhaps it's best to master the wisdom of the ages before trying to overthrow it.

[jancivil]

'Choruses' isn't so much a music theory problem, there is no guiding principle like 'here is V-I resolving', 'here is preparing for the V-I cadence'. It can be discussed like 'form', but not everybody is going to respond to that kind of course the same. So you're going to say 'A, B, A', 'song form' and suchlike. You can look to your models and make up your own mind.

It's kind of like the punch line to a joke; so there are comics that tell jokes and comics that don't so much tell jokes. It's all case-by-case. There are no rules here.

I wrote a couple of songs, straight, pedestrian sort of objects in the last few years. It doesn't occur to me to do anything but get the idea into shape and the shape is in the idea. Neither have a chorus. One has an instrumental middle section and the fifth verse concludes in a way the others do not, and the clue, the material for the conclusive bit lies in the middle section. I found the ending as a matter of course and it was obviously right. The other has three verses and the third verse has a cadence the others don't to make a final. No problem.