The Instant Composer course - thoughts?

[dermichl]

anybody familiar with this course : http://www.alexanderpublishing.com/Prod ... Study.aspx

[Chainsaw Calligraphy]

Personally I'd rather pay $10 for the book than $60 for the privilege of having the same material rearranged into videos and PDFs:

http://www.amazon.com/Study-Counterpoin ... 0393002772

All of the course material and more (the course only seems to cover the first quarter of the book) are also available for free online. A quick search on species counterpoint should turn up a few websites covering this area. It's also worth noting that counterpoint, which is all this course seems to teach, is a somewhat redundant skill and will be completely useless in the vast majority of modern styles of music. Redundancy aside, a few introductory exercises to modal counterpoint will not instantly make you a composer.

[tehlord]

Instant?

To think of all my composer friends who studied for years and years to get where they are now.

The fools.

[ThoughtExperiment]

They must have shifted a lot more copies since they invented mail-order...

Customer: Do you have a copy of 'The Instant Composer'?
Bookseller: Who's the author?
Customer: F...never mind, how about Rimsky-Korsakov's 'Principles Of Orchestration'

[dermichl]

... It's also worth noting that counterpoint, which is all this course seems to teach, is a somewhat redundant skill and will be completely useless in the vast majority of modern styles of music. ...

why do you think so?

personally i can think of counterpoint as a primary source for modern music ( starting with a bass line and crafting a lead line to accompany it )?!

at their website they state that they do have a somewhat different approach to teaching counterpoint compared to Mann's translation.

[jancivil]

- counterpoint as redundant to WHAT?

'Chainsaw' has one post here to address this product. And reduces it to the Fux book only to say that counterpoint skill 'will be completely useless in the vast majority of modern styles of music'. Well, a lot of this music rather suffers from a lack of musical skills in all areas.

I doubt this course can be reduced to 'get ahold of Gradus ad Parnassum by Fux'. But there is no reason to spend money on that thing. http://www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioSt ... intFux.pdf

Fux is a collection of 'do not do this' at root. I have no idea what this course does with that specifically, but it may be good discipline to have strictures. I never did it, I had a lot of part-writing to do using other rules, another paradigm more directly applicable to tunes (ie., harmonize a tune or bass line in four parts). Putting lines with liines is a forte of mine so I felt, relative to others' experience that did that one, that I wasn't missing anything really by that specifically [species counterpoint per Fux].
Horses for courses, who knows what works for another person. The site tells of starting with one, then two voices and so forth... I imagine it picks and chooses what someone thinks is good about the Fux methodology.

Sixty bucks seems a bit high in terms of buying speculatively. Alexander has been around for a while. I bought one book on how to set up and use Gigastudio ~10 yrs ago. It was a big fat book and thorough. It's not a dodgy source at all, I would say it's trustworthy. I'm put off by the title, but that's how it is today with the marketing.

My POV is generally spend the money on a course where you interact with a teacher; but either way get some feedback about the course from people that have done it.

[Chainsaw Calligraphy]

... It's also worth noting that counterpoint, which is all this course seems to teach, is a somewhat redundant skill and will be completely useless in the vast majority of modern styles of music. ...

why do you think so?

personally i can think of counterpoint as a primary source for modern music ( starting with a bass line and crafting a lead line to accompany it )?!

at their website they state that they do have a somewhat different approach to teaching counterpoint compared to Mann's translation.

Popular styles of music are generally built on the principles of harmony rather than counterpoint. Chords are used to harmonise a melody, or a melody is built over chord progression. Counterpoint is focused on the melodic independence of multiple parts, and hasn't seen much mainstream usage since Bach's day. That's not to say that you can't apply the technique to modern music, especially if you are only writing melody + baseline arrangements. Just be aware that learning the basics of counterpoint is barely scratching the surface of the subject of composition, and that $60 for a rehash of the first half of a book thats out of date by 300 years is a bit steep.

[jancivil]

... It's also worth noting that counterpoint, which is all this course seems to teach, is a somewhat redundant skill and will be completely useless in the vast majority of modern styles of music. ...

why do you think so?

personally i can think of counterpoint as a primary source for modern music ( starting with a bass line and crafting a lead line to accompany it )?!

at their website they state that they do have a somewhat different approach to teaching counterpoint compared to Mann's translation.

Popular styles of music are generally built on the principles of harmony rather than counterpoint. Chords are used to harmonise a melody, or a melody is built over chord progression. Counterpoint is focused on the melodic independence of multiple parts, and hasn't seen much mainstream usage since Bach's day. That's not to say that you can't apply the technique to modern music, especially if you are only writing melody + baseline arrangements. Just be aware that learning the basics of counterpoint is barely scratching the surface of the subject of composition, and that $60 for a rehash of the first half of a book thats out of date by 300 years is a bit steep.

So you bought the book and you're certain of it to the degree you can reduce it to 'a rehash of the first half of', I guess Gradus ad Parnassum?

Following that Fux is going to produce a result that is tied to a practice and it was out of date 300 years ago as a description of the music made then, even. But that's not the point of teaching Fux. It isn't for me, but Mozart had to do it.

I don't know what you even mean by 'mainstream usage since Bach's day'.
Do you think that Beethoven was ignorant of counterpoint? Do you believe there is no counterpoint in Stravinsky? I think that the emphasis on chords (over part-writing and an understanding of the linear in harmony) is a deficiency today.

Anyway, I'm suspicious of your framing of this product. I can see for myself there is more to it than the Fux bit and so can we all. EG: "and it's all this course seems to teach" - well, at the bottom of the list it talks about 'chord scales' for jazz practice.

[Chainsaw Calligraphy]

So you bought the book and you're certain of it to the degree you can reduce it to 'a rehash of the first half of', I guess Gradus ad Parnassum?

Following that Fux is going to produce a result that is tied to a practice and it was out of date 300 years ago as a description of the music made then, even. But that's not the point of teaching Fux. It isn't for me, but Mozart had to do it.

I don't know what you even mean by 'mainstream usage since Bach's day'. Do you think that Beethoven was ignorant of counterpoint? Do you believe there is no counterpoint in Stravinsky? I think that the emphasis on chords (over part-writing and an understanding of the linear in harmony) is a deficiency.

Anyway, I'm suspicious of your framing of this product. I can see for myself there is more to it than the Fux bit and so can we all.

I meant that as the rules of harmony became more established, counterpoint became less prevalent and tonal harmony dominated throughout the rest of the common practice period, also becoming the basis for most modern popular music. But that's starting to wander way off topic.

My issue isn't with the teaching of counterpoint, or with the company teaching it, but with implying that a brief introduction to it will be enough to instantly make someone a composer. I've been lurking on the forums for a while and you seem knowledgeable. Having read the the list of the subjects covered in the course, would you say it teaches someone everything they need to know to instantly become a composer?

On a related note, yes it's odd that my first post here in years is apparently an assault on a product. I tend to read forums more than I post in them, but I felt particularly compelled to comment on this thread. It's understandable if you assume this is some kind of subversive slander campaign against the publisher, but that doesn't make anything I said untrue.

[jancivil]

Well, three times you have said that all this is is a sketchy introduction to counterpoint via a partial presentation of Gradus ad Parnassum.

The bullet points suggest otherwise.

My picture of it is, they take what they want from it and create other exercises. I would probably have a critique of it myself, but it seemed like you were invested in telling a story about this thing. I agree that sixty bucks seems high. I think it overestimates the market for it, and its particular value from what I've seen. But, vs a piecemeal approach via internet searches it probably has a coherence that not everyone is going to manage on their own. But maybe the person that would benefit the most would benefit more from a course with a teacher, and feedback.

I think a lot of us have a problem with 'Instant Composer'.

[Chainsaw Calligraphy]

From what I gather the course only covers writing for two voices (skipping the second half of Fux’s book which covers three and four part writing), and involves no teaching, just self study. I may have been overly outraged and launched into rant, but the course title is incredibly misleading. In reality a basic course in composition is going to consist of;

fundamental music theory,
harmony,
counterpoint,
modal and post-tonal music,
often other styles (popular, jazz, film, world music etc.),
musical form,
instrumentation, orchestration and arranging,
aural training and transcription,
music production,

as well as other things I’ve probably forgotten about. Misleading someone and charging them steeply for it seems quite exploitative, hence the angry rant.

Putting all of that aside, an important question would be what the OP wants to achieve with their studies, as well as how much prior knowledge they have.

[dermichl]

What’s an Instant Composer? A songwriter or composer who can create music on demand without breaking a sweat. And those starting techniques you learn in The Instant Composer: Counterpoint by Fux which you can supplement with our home study video support lessons, available for separate purchase...

[jancivil]

Well, there's a lot worse been offered on this board. One of them is right near by...

[dermichl]

maybe this is close to a teacher : http://www.ars-nova.com/cp/

[DJ Warmonger]

The first thing I though after reading "instant composer course" was somewhere in the lines of "instant penis enlargement pills".

Seriosuly, I wouldn't pay a penny for something that's not personal tutoring. You can read books and articles on your own for less.