major and minor key or major and minor scales?

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Hello,

I'm re-reading Michael Hewitt's 'Music theory for computer musicians'.

On Page 111 is written:

'Having looked at a major key, it is now time to look to the other side of the coin. As well as major keys, you are no doubt aware that there can be minor keys.'

Shouldn't that be scales instead of keys?

I know about major and minor chords, major and minor scales, but major and minor keys? The chapter is called 'The natural minor scale', btw.

Pretty confusing.

Who can shed a light on this?

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When he talk about Keys it's equal to Scales.
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manducator wrote:I know about major and minor chords, major and minor scales, but major and minor keys? The chapter is called 'The natural minor scale', btw.

Pretty confusing.
A scale is a progressive series of notes moving upwards and/or downwards. There are countless different types of scales, but common ones in the West include the major scale, and the different minor scales. Each has seven different notes (one chromatic spelling of each) spanning one octave, and is named after the note it starts on.

Keys can only be major or minor (but not all music is written in a key). To put it very basically, the key indicates the scale (either major or minor) around which the music is written.

However, one crucial thing to remember is that there are different types of minor scale (natural, melodic, harmonic), but only one type of minor key (in which the sixth and seventh notes are variables).

So, although similar and related, scale and key are not quite the same thing.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.

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JumpingJackFlash wrote:
A scale is a progressive series of notes moving upwards and/or downwards. There are countless different types of scales, but common ones in the West include the major scale, and the different minor scales. Each has seven different notes (one chromatic spelling of each) spanning one octave, and is named after the note it starts on.
Ok, so the A minor scale is a... scale; seven different notes:

A B C D E F G. Thats the A minor natural scale, right?
A B C D E F# G is the A minor harmonic scale. Right too?
A B C D E F# G# is the A minor melodic ascending scale? The descending melodic scale = G F E D C B A?
JumpingJackFlash wrote:Keys can only be major or minor (but not all music is written in a key). To put it very basically, the key indicates the scale (either major or minor) around which the music is written.
Does the A minor scale have a key? Is key the same as key signature?
JumpingJackFlash wrote:However, one crucial thing to remember is that there are different types of minor scale (natural, melodic, harmonic), but only one type of minor key (in which the sixth and seventh notes are variables).
So the A minor natural, melodic and harmonic scales are in the same key. They have the same key signature.

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manducator wrote:Hello,

I'm re-reading Michael Hewitt's 'Music theory for computer musicians'.

On Page 111 is written:

'Having looked at a major key, it is now time to look to the other side of the coin. As well as major keys, you are no doubt aware that there can be minor keys.'

Shouldn't that be scales instead of keys?

I know about major and minor chords, major and minor scales, but major and minor keys? The chapter is called 'The natural minor scale', btw.

Pretty confusing.

Who can shed a light on this?
What he mean is that the Key of C maj use the same (white-key) scale as A min (relative to each other). The only differnce is the starting Note:

C maj = Scale: CDEFGAB (in the Key of C)
A min = Scale: ABCDEFG (in the Key of A)

both use the same Notes = same Scale but are maj or min depends of the starting Key. So the starting Key decided about the chord but you have the same Scale/Notes in both.
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valerian_777 wrote: What he mean is that the Key of C maj use the same (white-key) scale as A min (relative to each other). The only differnce is the starting Note:

C maj = Scale: CDEFGAB (in the Key of C)
A min = Scale: ABCDEFG (in the Key of A)

both use the same Notes = same Scale but are maj or min depends of the starting Key. So the starting Key decided about the chord but you have the same Scale/Notes in both.
So, key is determined by the first note, right? No matter what scale you use, as it starts with a C, it's in the key of C. So, C minor scale and C major scale are both in the key of C. Right?

It's the scale that determines if it's major or minor; major and minor scales. But Michael Hewitt talks about major and minor keys...

Sorry for the confusion but I want to get this solved once and for all.

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manducator wrote:So, key is determined by the first note, right? No matter what scale you use, as it starts with a C, it's in the key of C. So, C minor scale and C major scale are both in the key of C. Right?
Yes.
manducator wrote:It's the scale that determines if it's major or minor; major and minor scales. But Michael Hewitt talks about major and minor keys...

Sorry for the confusion but I want to get this solved once and for all.
No, it's not the Scale it's the starting Key which determines if it's maj or min. Look again my Example above with Cmaj and Amin (both have the same Scale/Notes).

PS. We talking about natural Scale only here. :)
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manducator wrote:A B C D E F G. Thats the A minor natural scale, right?
A B C D E F# G is the A minor harmonic scale. Right too?
A B C D E F# G# is the A minor melodic ascending scale? The descending melodic scale = G F E D C B A?
The harmonic minor is not correct; it should be
A B C D E F G# (the G is sharpened, not the F).
Otherwise, all fine.

Note however that the minor key includes both F and F#, as well as G and G#.
manducator wrote:Does the A minor scale have a key? Is key the same as key signature?
No. Scales do not "have" keys.
The key signature helps in determining the key, but that's not the same thing either.
manducator wrote:So the A minor natural, melodic and harmonic scales are in the same key. They have the same key signature.
No. The minor key encompasses all of the minor scales.

A piece of music is (or might be) in a key, but a scale is largely just a theoretical abstraction; a tool, something to practice and help you learn etc.

To put it another way, a scale is basically like reducing a key to its bare essentials; listing out the available notes from the "tonic" upwards.
Last edited by JumpingJackFlash on Fri Jul 04, 2014 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.

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valerian_777 wrote:No, it's not the Scale it's the starting Key which determines if it's maj or min.
Major scale = tone-tone-semitone-tone-tone-tone-semitone

Minor scale = tone-semitone-tone-tone-semitone-tone-tone

Isn't the scale the thing which determines if something is major or minor?

If the key (=starting note) determines of something is major or minor, how can we have C major and C minor existing together?

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Thank you for your help guys. Key is about tonal center and a scale is some sort of 'pattern' which determines which notes to use around that tonal center.

A scale is a method of 'narrowing' the key.

I starts to make sense to me.

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If the key (=starting note) determines of something is major or minor, how can we have C major and C minor existing together?
The Key Signature is different in Cmaj and Cmin (so the given Scales have different Notes or in short you dealing with two Scales).

The Starting Key only determinates maj/min if you stay in the same Key Signature of course.

Ask yourself which Chords you can play with the given notes/scale: CDEFGAH ? you will find maj and min but it depends of the Key you starting with.
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valerian_777 wrote:The Starting Key only determinates maj/min if you stay in the same Key Signature of course.

Ask yourself which Chords you can play with the given notes/scale: CDEFGAH ? you will find maj and min but it depends of the Key you starting with.
This is going to be very confusing for the OP.
You're mixing up "key" as in the key of the song, with "note" (as in A, B, C etc.) Might be a language thing?

While the scale of C major obviously begins on C, a piece in the key of C major could conceivably begin on any note (or chord).
Unfamiliar words can be looked up in my Glossary of musical terms.
Also check out my Introduction to Music Theory.

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valerian_777 wrote:Ask yourself which Chords you can play with the given notes/scale: CDEFGAH ? you will find maj and min but it depends of the Key you starting with.
Mmmh, this starts to make sense. Thanks for the help!!

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manducator wrote:
valerian_777 wrote:Ask yourself which Chords you can play with the given notes/scale: CDEFGAH ? you will find maj and min but it depends of the Key you starting with.
Mmmh, this starts to make sense. Thanks for the help!!
Great! :)
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manducator wrote: Isn't the scale the thing which determines if something is major or minor?
No, it's the harmony that determines the tonality (key) of the piece, not the scale, which, like JJP said, is just a sequence of notes, usually diatonic, that may (or may not) belong to a certain key.
manducator wrote: If the key (=starting note) determines of something is major or minor, how can we have C major and C minor existing together?
It isn't the starting note that determines if something is Major or minor, but the harmony, and the notes used, as I said previously. And you can even start a piece in E or G and have it in C Major (for example, the famous motif of the fifth of Beethoven starts "G-G-G Eb", yet it's in c minor.

Keys are determined by the harmonies used, and since there are notes that are constantly and consistently altered, those alterations started to be written right after the clef (to make notation easier). That's how the key signatures appeared. However, since the leading tone in the minor keys is considered an "harmonic" alteration, and the raise of the vi is also a melodic alteration, they don't go into the key signature. So, A minor does not have a key signature, (or have a blank key signature, if you prefer) although F# and G# are notes that can, and most certainly will, especially the second, be used in the music written in that key.

There is always a Major and a minor tonality that share the same key signature. The minor tonic is always a minor third below its correspondent Major tonic.

If you want to quickly know the key signature of a minor tonality, you just subtract 3 from the key signature of the same tonic Major mode. Threfore, since C Major has a blank (0) key signature, c minor will have a (0 minus 3) key signature. (-) are flats, and (+) are sharps, so, c minor will have three flats (B, E, A) in its key signature. The same way, since D Major has two sharps in its key signature, d minor will have (2 minus 3) one flat in it key signature. E Major has four sharps, therefore, e minor has (4 minus 3) one sharp. And so on.
Fernando (FMR)

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