Anyone out there studying Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony ?

[indigo_dave]

I am studying Arnold Schoenberg's Theory of Harmony. Very slowly. I'm an experienced and musically literate 62 year old. I live in Orlando and have one companion student who lives in Washington state. I'd like to find one or two more who are actually working through the book. I hope to be studying this book and writing 4 part harmony exercises for years to come. I often read a passage thinking "huh?". I go back later and re-read the same passage thinking "aha". But writing the exercises while sitting at the piano is critical to learning, I believe.

Is anyone else here working through this book ?

[StudioDave]

Greetings,

Ah, my kind of guy ! I read through Schoenberg's Harmonielehre when I was studying in LA in the 80s. I also read through Piston's Harmony, Sessions' book, and Persichetti's 20th Century Harmony. The Piston was assigned work, I read the rest on my own. My piano keyboard skills are non-existent but I'm a good reader, so I sequenced examples to hear what I was studying. I sequenced the whole of Persichetti's book (still have the MIDI files), did all the exercises (and the workbook) from Piston, and read the others for further insight. So IMO you're on the right track.

Good luck finding someone else going through it, and have fun !

Best,

dp

[fmr]

I used that book when I was graduating in Composition (also Structural Functions of Harmony, which Schoenberg wrote later, and was thought as a kind of introduction to Theory of Harmony). Anything you want to discuss/clarify, feel free to post. If I can assist you, I will

[zarapr]

Good studying, very interesting.

[padillac]

I'm reading it too, and really enjoying it.

For more directly practical learning, I'm using Composing Music: A new approach (it's a workbook) and ArtOfComposing.com which is really really awesome.

[rorshack23]

I've been studying TOH on-and-off for a few years. I am gradually coming to understand more each time I go back, but I am aiming to compose music as a result of studying this book (and others by Schoenberg). What I've found so far is that I can complete most of the exercises in the first half of the book, but can't seem to turn much of the knowledge into actual compositions.

To

Greetings,

Ah, my kind of guy ! I read through Schoenberg's Harmonielehre when I was studying in LA in the 80s. I also read through Piston's Harmony, Sessions' book, and Persichetti's 20th Century Harmony. The Piston was assigned work, I read the rest on my own. My piano keyboard skills are non-existent but I'm a good reader, so I sequenced examples to hear what I was studying. I sequenced the whole of Persichetti's book (still have the MIDI files), did all the exercises (and the workbook) from Piston, and read the others for further insight. So IMO you're on the right track.

Good luck finding someone else going through it, and have fun !

Best,

dp

StudioDave, do you by any chance have the ability to share your MIDI files for 20th Century Harmony? Also, which Sessions book are you referring to? Thirdly, after all of this study, have you written any music which reflects your knowledge of these disciplines, and is any of it available for us to listen to? One more: what do you believe these studies added to your ability to write music (big question, I know, but I'm wondering where all this leads)

I used that book when I was graduating in Composition (also Structural Functions of Harmony, which Schoenberg wrote later, and was thought as a kind of introduction to Theory of Harmony). Anything you want to discuss/clarify, feel free to post. If I can assist you, I will

?

FMR, I have a bunch of questions about this theory, may I ask the first few that come to mind?
1) when you transform, lets say, a C major triad to a C7 with aug 5, which scale degrees do you use besides C, E, G# and Bb? 2) Do you know of anywhere/anyone that can suggest ways to create exercises from these textbooks that result in actual music, as opposed to dry examples based on strict 4-part semibreves? i.e. how do I turn these progressions into music?
3) Can you suggest any listening by composers who were strongly and directly influenced by these books? i.e. do you know of anyone who writes (particularly piano) music that travels through regions and uses transformations, etc?

I'm reading it too, and really enjoying it.

For more directly practical learning, I'm using Composing Music: A new approach (it's a workbook) and <span class="skimlinks-unlinked">ArtOfComposing.com</span> which is really really awesome.

Hi Padillac,
I have just received Composing music: a new approach in the mail just over a week ago, and am enjoying the exercises in the early chapters so far. I've also been through several ArtOfComposing courses in their entirety, and am awaiting the Sonata Form course to finish being completed (great website, huh?!). I like how these resources focus on the 'practical'. It's as though I need someone to 'water down' my Theory of Harmony and 20th Century Harmony books (which I know is taboo!) into much shorter, simpler, achievable tasks...

[herodotus]

Schoenberg's Harmonielehre is not really a book of instruction. It was more of an attempt to make sense of the chaotic dialogue taking place in his head at the time.

If you look at the music he was composing when he wrote this book, you can see that he was at the height of his expressionistic atonal period. He was writing music that seemed ro break completely with the German/Austrian traditions that he grew up with, and he was trying to find a theoretical way to link his atonal music with these traditions.

Of course, he eventually arrived at the twelve tone method, which he thought of as a link between the traditions he loved and the music he felt compelled to make. While later composers used the twelve tone method to break with the past, that was never his intention at all.

In any case, I have always thought of both the Harmonielehre and Structural Functions of Harmony as being confused and unconvincing rationalizations. Fascinating, but not exactly instructive.

His other composition books, especially Fundamentals of Musical Composition, are much more instructive. The writing is better, the train of thought is much more clear, and you can actually learn about music rather than Arnold's convoluted obsessions. (I mean, I love the guy, but he was really inward and idiosyncratic.)

[herodotus]

Mind you, I am not trying to discourage anyone from reading any of these books. Schoenberg was a musical genius, and I mean a REAL musical genius, not just a writer of catchy tunes who brooded a lot.

It's just that he had a very personal vision, and lived in a very chaotic world. And the historical situation he found himself in forced him to wrestle with issues that most people today wouldn't see the point of. The tradition he was trying to save is now just a dim memory to most people, and his method of composing with twelve tones is even more obscure. He wasn't ahead of his time; he made his own time, his own place, his own world.

The reason for studying Schoenberg is to understand Schoenberg. Expecting simple instruction in harmony from him would be like asking Gaudi how to build a retaining wall.

[rorshack23]

Hi Herodotus,

Do you have any suggestions for books people might like to research, as far as ones that are instructive, can teach us about harmony, and are full of exercises and so on (i.e. good for self-teaching/learning how to compose)?

Cheers!

[herodotus]

Hi Herodotus,

Do you have any suggestions for books people might like to research, as far as ones that are instructive, can teach us about harmony, and are full of exercises and so on (i.e. good for self-teaching/learning how to compose)?

Cheers!

Walter Piston's 'Harmony' and 'Counterpoint' are both quite good from a practical standpoint.

[rorshack23]

Thank you, Herodotus!

[StudioDave]

Walter Piston's 'Harmony' and 'Counterpoint' are both quite good from a practical standpoint.

The harmony text, definitely. Get the workbook too, it's a good supplement.

I wasn't as impressed with his counterpoint book, I'd recommend Kennan over Piston.

Best,

dp

[StudioDave]

StudioDave, do you by any chance have the ability to share your MIDI files for 20th Century Harmony?

http://linux-sound.org/midfiles/persiket.tar.gz

The MIDI files were created with Voyetra's Sequencer Plus. They're transcribed exactly as regards pitches, rhythms, and tempi, but they are not orchestrated, i.e. they only require a piano preset. I left the instrumentation as a further exercise. A README file is included.

Also, which Sessions book are you referring to?

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8041 ... c-practice

Thirdly, after all of this study, have you written any music which reflects your knowledge of these disciplines, and is any of it available for us to listen to?

Pretty much everything on my SoundCloud account reflects my engagement with books mentioned in this thread, but the influence perhaps isn't so obvious. I write tonal and not-so-tonal music, from solo blues to serialist electroacoustic works. Some is meant for performers, some isn't. Current personal favorites are the tracks Cabbagenic, Vosim - Dream Sequence II, the Sonata and other recent pieces for sequenced piano.

https://soundcloud.com/davephillips69/

One more: what do you believe these studies added to your ability to write music (big question, I know, but I'm wondering where all this leads).

I should emphasize that the books were part of a curriculum that included a lot of ear training, analysis, and just listening to and enjoying many pieces of great music, not only from the 20th century and not only from the "classical" tradition.

I was deeply impressed by a statement by Roger Sessions regarding what people call "music theory". In his opinion it's really musical craft that we all want and need. The books and exercises intend to enhance your sensitivity to the materials of music, they're not abstractions, and if you take them seriously you'll do a lot of hard work to build solid musical skills. Music composition requires at least as much practice as any other aspect of the musical arts. Early work tends to be imitative, academic, unoriginal, et cetera, but it's necessary and it will help you reach your goal.

That's what the learning has done and continues to do for my musicianship, it continually enhances my sensitivity to the musical materials at hand, at the largest and smallest levels. When composing I tend towards my intuition, but that intuition itself has absorbed the input of countless hours playing, studying, and listening to music.

One thing more: The books present exercises and examples taken from actual practice, but they rarely indicate the way from relatively brief studies to large-scale extended forms. In my experience the best "books" on that topic are the scores to large-scale works. You don't have to work your way through the catalogs of Haydn or Telemann, just pick two or three pieces you like by your favorite composers, get the scores, then spend the next few months examining their designs and details. It's great fun, you'll learn a lot, and you will definitely emerge from the study with an enriched awareness of just how things work together in a complex piece of music. Which can be of considerable value to someone who wants to write such things.

Best,

dp

[woggle]

The reason for studying Schoenberg is to understand Schoenberg. Expecting simple instruction in harmony from him would be like asking Gaudi how to build a retaining wall.

Hilarious - doubt I've ever seen anything wittier on KVR

[StudioDave]

The reason for studying Schoenberg is to understand Schoenberg. Expecting simple instruction in harmony from him would be like asking Gaudi how to build a retaining wall.

All respect to Herodotus, but that comment's a little strained. Schoenberg's books are intensely "classical", i.e. they have little or nothing to do with his 12-tone or atonal methods. In his Fundamentals most examples come from Beethoven and Brahms, and IIRC he maintains that approach through all his didactic works.

In a deeper sense, yes, I agree with the comment. You'll certainly know where Schoenberg came from if you study his teaching curricula (e.g. Beethoven, Mahler, Brahms). For as much as he's been described as radical or even insane, his background is solidly placed in the European classical tradition. And indeed, his approach is severe and demanding. He expected a lot from students, and his methods were certainly effective, judging by the list of his outstanding students (it's a long list).

And hey, I'd have asked Gaudi to build that wall. What, miss the opportunity to have a retaining wall built by Gaudi ?! Can you imagine what you'd get ?

Best regards,

dp