Modal Harmony vid series

[jancivil]

He wasn't saying that to spell a minor seventh chord you start with a dominant chord and alter it from there. He was talking about the LABELS.

[...]He said that all the chord extensions have the default of Dominant 7th as their standpoint.

There is a term for this latest addition: special pleading. I'll stand by my view, his and your explanations leave a lot to be desired.

A vanilla dominant seventh chord in jazz chord nomenclature (e.g. G7) is the most basic symbol of all seventh chords because it's just the root note name and a "7."

I can abstract <symbol for chord> from <chord> even as you conflate them in later explanations; not everyone is that clever 24/7/365. You had to help him quite a bit...

Ok, this has to be an ESL issue, because I can't make what you're saying make any sense as a response to what I'm saying. Oh well.

I understood the difference you want early on in this clusterfuck, between THE LABEL and the actuality of chords. This distinction is_not_there in what he wrote. So what he wrote is not good. He said THE NOTES (not the labels for the chords as your apologetics explains), all of them, start as notes from the dominant. I said no they don't.

A bit later you actually said he did not mean what he actually said

He wasn't saying that to spell a minor seventh chord you start with a dominant chord and alter it from there. He was talking about the LABELS.

In pop notation, all extended chord notes start by default as notes from the dominant 7th chord (ex: E13 = E G# B D F# (A) C#), and then are altered from there.

Oops. So you are acting as apologist (if you don't immediately get that word look it up) for him. Special Pleading. Speaky the lingo, skipper?

Additionally, that this required all of this verbiage should be a sign. I was able to abstract LABEL FOR A THING from THE THING ITSELF but not everyone is up to all this at any given moment nor am I.

All you need to tell a body is '7, unless otherwise indicated by a word or symbol, is the minor quality 7'. Bringing in this extraneous lingo is a universal convention in jazz theory? I guess so. So you indicate, and evidently we get a lot of this crap up in here.

[jancivil]

where does bb5 enters into anything. If we encountered a Gb in key of F, it's bII. The default 7 for that is F. So you'd indicate a lowered 7. The b5 of Gb is Dbb.

The other option is to say that the chord is really a Gb7#11, in which case it's a C.

Tell you the truth, I wouldn't object to spelling the b5 of Gb C, because of b5 equivalence.
If this is that Gb7b5 going to F, it's dominant 7th of F and there's a way to figure the flat five bass for a C7b5 chord. Funnily enough it's V#4/3.

[zethus909]

here from? Your guts? Your stomach? Your loans?.

it comes from the fabric of our immediate solar system, i said this already. thats where the intervals come from, we "excavate" our music out of the bedrock of our physical world. sound exists only in the physical world, it travels through our atmostphere.

that world exists whether we exist or not. the music exists whether we exist or not.

we are animals, we hear music (we call it music), because we were brought forth from the semi-humid slime that was our Earth. all of this is only possible because of the atmosphere and the way our solar system acts.

any and ALL, abstract interpretations (subjective) of this underlying reality are inadequate, irrelevant. these abstractions can create the illusion that they are in fact "part" of this underlying fabric. ..or even more curiously, we can think that this "reality" was created FOR us, and that we are in fact the centre of the solar system.

this has been largely debunked though, see galileo

this is as much about philosophy as it is about practice.

lets make music good again.

[JumpingJackFlash]

it comes from the fabric of our immediate solar system, i said this already. thats where the intervals come from, we "excavate" our music out of the bedrock of our physical world. sound exists only in the physical world, it travels through our atmostphere.

that world exists whether we exist or not. the music exists whether we exist or not.

Music is NOT a natural thing waiting to be discovered if we just listen hard enough. Stop thinking of music as some airy fairy thing like a stream trickling down a hill; that is sound but it isn't music. There is a difference (sound might be incorporated into music, but it isn't music per se).

Take any great composer - Bach, Mozart, Beethoven... They didn't just turn over a rock one day and find their masterpieces, they composed them - it required conscious thought, logical order and an intuitive understanding of the basic principles of music as they existed at the time. Their music is entirely artificial, it would never have existed had they not existed to create it. And had Mozart been born a century earlier or a century later, or in a different continent, his music would have been entirely different (if he still created any).

Despite common belief, music evolved in spite of nature, not because of it. We could get into a whole discussion here about tuning and temperament, consonance and dissonance and whatnot but it would be futile. Our system of music evolved the same way our language has. Other cultures have entirely different languages and entirely different musics. It may seem natural to you, but in and of itself, it isn't.

[MadBrain]

where does bb5 enters into anything. If we encountered a Gb in key of F, it's bII. The default 7 for that is F. So you'd indicate a lowered 7. The b5 of Gb is Dbb.

The other option is to say that the chord is really a Gb7#11, in which case it's a C.

Tell you the truth, I wouldn't object to spelling the b5 of Gb C, because of b5 equivalence.
If this is that Gb7b5 going to F, it's dominant 7th of F and there's a way to figure the flat five bass for a C7b5 chord. Funnily enough it's V#4/3.

Yes, it's totally the flat five bass for a C7b5 chord. Actually, the version I linked to on youtube plays C7b5 in some of those places I *think*.

[jancivil]

FTR, I have no issue with how chords are symbolized in common currency. I grew up with it like everybody else. The necessity for "b9" for F in an E chord - presented as in C as it was - or the 'self-contained' nature of calling the extensions past 7, the de facto minor 7 as default, no problem, no issue at all. I described my objection (as well as I'm going to) to a sentence involving 'dominant 7' that was whack. No one ever said that to in my life.

As to Levine, my whole objection is the statement the modes are just C major starting from the other 6 tones. Give me a break. He has a lot to answer for there. Even as scale theory in itself, I think it's something we could live without. (The rest of it, could be good, I don't know, not so fascinated by it.)

[jancivil]

the music exists whether we exist or not.

Your "music" is your own fault, don't blame nature for that shit.

[fmr]

the music exists whether we exist or not.

Your "music" is your own fault, don't blame nature for that shit.

[zethus909]

thanks for yet another insult, looks good on you, and you fmr laughing at it, you're quite the bully.

[jancivil]

Your social/your emotional obtuseness is second-to-none, or you'd have some sense of why people are sick of your posting. You constantly interrupt people that are actually discussing matters of music theory with this utter nonsense.

that world exists whether we exist or not. the music exists whether we exist or not.

"the" music. FFS. Your music exists because of your existence.

I said it before, I would eschew any remark on your video, presented by itself. Instead of it being part of this series of whacky statements in service of your posturing how remaining free of 'music theory' (after a couple of years or so of you posting here about various bits and pieces of music theory you picked up; who are you kidding do you think), that remaining pure of such compromise is the superior way.

It is your fault. It is exactly the product of your delusional attitude, your lack of honest work, your lack of any clue. Of your refusal to study in favor of pseudo-philosophical drivel.

Do you think it's good? It's really, without the least exaggeration, astonishing to witness, because it is the perfect illustration of how full of shit you are. Which in itself is ultra extreme.

It's convenient for you to say 'insult', but I really mean it, and it addresses your hippydippytrippy remarks in context. Your music doesn't exist in nature. The 12 tone equal temperament on your keyboard is available to you because of all the people that struggled through millennia to temper the tunings. The synth itself is a product of people that obtained knowledge through theorizing and testing. The piano tuning undoubtedly emulates some form of stretch tuning, which uses 'music theory', which relies on following instructions.

What do you really think this 'excavation' would be? Evidently you understand deep down that the materials, let alone "music" weren't simply plucked from a tree or you won't have used a verb indicating labor.

any and ALL, abstract interpretations (subjective) of this underlying reality are inadequate, irrelevant. these abstractions can create the illusion that they are in fact "part" of this underlying fabric.

What the f**k is that. What underlying fabric, would you please describe it for us?
Because in order to understand anything at all, you're going to have to get your hands dirty and do some work, sussing the fabric will involve understanding the physics of it all, acoustics, for starters the overtone series. You'd have to compromise yourself by the inadequacy of abstractions.
No, you'd of course prefer to talk like you're a grand philosopher, the word 'underlying' is mysterious, as though that will give you an out from talking about anything actual or real.
As though in favor of the ideal. And here, again, if you were a bit better educated you'd realize how adolescent and pretentious that all looks.

It's just delusional. I will stop short of guessing about your condition, but in figurative terms you are as far from sober as it gets.

this is as much about philosophy as it is about practice.

What "this"? You're providing yourself a prop to posture above useful precepts, dismissing 'theory' as abstraction, via the word 'philosophy' now? Simply amazing. As I have said, thought-free..

Look. If you went from an E up to a C in your little improv., that's called a minor sixth; or let's be more abstract and less culture-bound and say 8 semitones. We cannot be less bound to music history, ie., purer than that because this interval does not happen in nature. The closest thing to an audible interval off a fundamental (which is as simple as we can get here) is 41 cents sharp to that 12 ET 800 cents, the vibrational ratio 13:8 is that far from the ET product. The 12tET system is unnatural. People came close to it many times via various mathematics before math itself was developed far enough to finally do it, ie., 12th root of 2.
That's not philosophy, child. That's not bullshit.

lets make music good again.

What are you, Donald Trump? Music needs you to fix it? Fuggoff.