Is dissonance bad?

[JumpingJackFlash]

Extreme consonance can send you a bit stir crazy after a while as well. Try a day with nothing but Palestrina's motets for company.

Even Palestrina used dissonance (albeit carefully handled). You'd have to go back a lot further than that to find non-monophonic music that didn't... In theory at least. It does of course depend on how it's defined.

[zethus909]

yea this is exactly what im talking about. it's one thing...to play some jazzy stuff with your eyes closed...rule: on allowed to play the black keys in one hand, and only white keys in the other....that you can still find a nice dissonance. you need that for the full pallatte, monophonic diminshed or only whole tone leads over choose your random bass chords or bass melodies, is fine, in fact it's essential, passing dissonance, beautiful

what is the BAD dissonance, where you play a major bass chord in one hand, and a semi tone up major chord in right hand...and then just keep playing that over an dover.... ie C and Db7, or Cdim and Dbdim, and then you just keep pounding this over and over again....because you think you are being really "smart" and cool, and avant garde. no it sounds awful. and you should be imprisoned

harmonic dissonance different than melodic dissonance

passing melodic dissonance = good

sustained pervasive harmonicly dissonant poly chords = DEATH

[Gamma-UT]

Extreme consonance can send you a bit stir crazy after a while as well. Try a day with nothing but Palestrina's motets for company.

Even Palestrina used dissonance (albeit carefully handled). You'd have to go back a lot further than that to find non-monophonic music that didn't... In theory at least. It does of course depend on how it's defined.

If you go back a lot further you wind up with more dissonance. What we understand of a lot of ancient Greek music, for example, would have zethus909 running for the emergency exit. Realistically, the doctrine-inspired war on dissonance more or less peaked during Palestrina's time – when the folk-music and Eastern-influenced polyphonic church chants were finally cleansed of their excessive fruitiness.

[zethus909]

The Republic by Plato, Book III (398-403).

Then now, my friend, I said, that part of music or literary education which relates to the story or myth may be considered to be finished; for the matter and manner have both been discussed.
I think so too, he said.
Next in order will follow melody and song.
That is obvious.
Everyone now would be able to discover what we ought to say about them, if we are to be consistent with ourselves.
I fear, said Glaucon, laughing, that the word “everyone” hardly includes me, for I cannot at the moment say what they should be, though I have a suspicion.
At any rate you are aware that a song or ode has three parts – the words, the melody and the rhythm.
Yes, he said; so as that I know.
And as for the words, there will surely be no difference between words which are and which are not set to music; both will conform to the same laws, and these have already been determined by us?
Yes.
And the melody and rhythm will be in conformity with the words?
Certainly.
We were saying, when we spoke of the subject-matter, that we had no need of lamentations and strains of sorrow?
True.
And which are the harmonies expressive of sorrow? You are musical and can tell me.
The harmonies which you mean are the mixed or tenor Lydian, and the full-toned or bass Lydian, and such-like.
These then, I said, must be banished; even to women who have a character to maintain they are of no use, and much less to men.
Certainly.
]In the next place, drunkenness and softness and indolence are utterly unbecoming the character of our guardians.
Utterly unbecoming?
And which are the soft and convivial harmonies?
The Ionian, he replied, and some of the Lydian which are termed “relaxed”.
]Well, and are these of any use for warlike men?
Quite the reverse, he replied; and if so the Dorian and the Phrygian are the only ones which you have left.
I answered: Of the harmonies I know nothing, but would have you leave me one which can render the note or accent which a brave man utters in warlike action and in stern resolve; and when his cause is failing, and he is going to wounds or death or is overtaken by disaster in some other form, at every such crisis he meets the blows of fortune with firm step and a determination to endure; and an opposite kind for times of peace and freedom of action, when there is no pressure of necessity, and he is seeking to persuade God by prayer, or man by instruction and admonition, or when on the other hand he is expressing his willingness to yield to the persuasion or entreaty or admonition of others. And when in this manner he has attained his end, I would have the music show him not carried away by his success, but acting moderately and wisely in all circumstances, and acquiescing in the event. These two harmonies I ask you to leave; the strain of necessity and the strain of freedom, the strain of the unfortunate and the strain of the fortunate, the strain of courage, and the strain of temperance; these, I say, leave.
And these, he replied, are the Dorian and the Phrygian harmonies of which I was just now speaking.
Then, I said, if these and these only are to be used in our songs and melodies, we shall not want multiplicity of strings or a panharmonic scale?
I suppose not.
Then we shall not maintain the artificers of lyres with three corners and complex scales, or the makers of any other many-stringed, curiously harmonized instruments?
Certainly not.
But what do you say to flute-makers and flute-players? Would you admit them into our State when you reflect that in this composite use of harmony the flute is worse than any stringed instrument; even the panharmonic music is only imitation of the flute?
Clearly not.
There remain then only the lyre and the harp for use in the city, and the shepherds in the country may have some kind of pipe.
That is surely the conclusion to be drawn from the argument.
The preferring of Apollo and his instruments to Marsyas and his instruments is not at all strange, I said.
Not at all, he replied.
Then let us now finish the purgation, I said. Next in order to harmonies, rhythms will naturally follow, and they should be subject to the same rules, for we ought not to seek out complex systems of metre, and a variety of feet, but rather to discover what rhythms are the expressions of a courageous and harmonious life; and when we have found them, we shall adapt the foot and the melody to words having a like spirit, not the words to the foot and melody. To say what these rhythms are will be your duty – you must teach me them, as you have already taught me the harmonies.
But, indeed, he replied, I cannot tell you. I know from observation that there are some three principles of rhythm out of which metrical systems are framed, just as in sounds there are four notes out of which all the harmonies are composed. But of what sort of lives they are severally the imitations I am unable to say.
Then, I said, we must take Damon into our counsels; and he will tell us what rhythms are expressive of meanness, or insolence, or fury, or other unworthiness, and are to be reserved for the expression of opposite feelings. And I think that I have an indistinct recollection of his mentioning a complex Cretic rhythm; also a dactylic or heroic, and he arranged them in some manner which I do not quite understand, making the rhythms equal in the rise and fall of the foot, long and short alternating; and unless I am mistaken, he spoke of an iambic as well as a trochaic rhythm, and assigned to them short and long quantities. Also in some cases he appeared to praise or censure the movement of the foot quite as much as the rhythm; or perhaps a combination of the two; for I am not certain what he meant. These matters, however, as I was saying, had better be referred to Damon himself, for the analysis of the subject would be difficult, you know?
Rather so, I should say.
But it does not require much analysis to see that grace or the absence of grace accompanies good or bad rhythm.
None at all.
And also that good and bad rhythm naturally assimilate to a good and bad style; and that harmony and discord in like manner follow style; for our principle is that rhythm and harmony are regulated by the words, and not the words by them.
Just so, he said, they should follow the words.
And will not the words and the character of the style depend on the temper of the soul?
Yes.
And everything else on the style?
Yes.
Then beauty of style and harmony and grace and good rhythm depend on simplicity, – I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity which is only a euphemism for folly?
Very true, he replied.

[Socrates expands on the role of the artist in the ideal State and argues that unsuitable artists should be prevented from practising their art.]

And therefore, I said, Glaucon, musical training is a more potent instrument than any other, because rhythm and harmony find their way into the inward places of the soul, on which they mightily fasten, imparting grace, and making the soul of him who is rightly educated graceful, or of him who is ill-educated ungraceful: and also because he who has received this true education of the inner being will most shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in art and nature, and with a true taste, while he praises and rejoices over and receives into his soul the good, and becomes noble and good, he will justify blame and hate the bad, now in the days of his youth, even before he will recognize and salute the friend with whom his education has made him long familiar.
Yes, he said, I quite agree with you in thinking that it is for such reasons that they should be trained in music……….
Even so, as I maintain, neither we nor the guardians, whom we say that we have to educate, can ever become musical until we and they know the essential forms of temperance, courage, liberality, magnanimity, and their kindred, as well as the contrary forms, in all their combinations, and can recognise then and their images wherever they are found, not slighting them either in small things or great, but believing them all to be within the sphere of one art and study.
Most assuredly.
And then nobility of soul is observed in harmonious union with beauty of form, and both are cast from the same mould, that will be the fairest of sights to him who has en eye to see it?
The fairest indeed.
And the fairest is also the loveliest?
That may be assumed.
And it is with human beings who most display such harmony that a musical man will be most in love; but he will not love any who do not possess it.
That is true, he replied, if the deficiency be in the soul; but if there be any bodily defect he will be patient of it, and may even approve it.

[A short discussion of the nature of pleasure.]

Thus much of music, and the ending is appropriate; for what should be the end of music if not the love of beauty?

The Dialogues of Plato, translated by Benjamin Jowett, Volume Four, The Republic, edited by M Hare & DA Russell, Sphere Books Ltd., 1970, Book III (398-403), pp.165-171.

[aMUSEd]

Plato always was a bit of an idiot.

[Gamma-UT]

Plato always was a bit of an idiot.

But he knew what he liked.

[cron]

Both of the arcade game examples posted use the oldschool rave trick of loading a full chord into the sampler and then playing it like a standard melodic line. It's not so much dissonant as what I call 'rave tonality'. I suppose it is dissonant, but when you grew up enthralled with UK dance music in the early 90s, your ear is fairly used to it.

[Gamma-UT]

Both of the arcade game examples posted use the oldschool rave trick of loading a full chord into the sampler and then playing it like a standard melodic line. It's not so much dissonant as what I call 'rave tonality'. I suppose it is dissonant, but when you grew up enthralled with UK dance music in the early 90s, your ear is fairly used to it.

The quality of dissonance changes over time and with enculturation. Part of the "this is new" effect those of us who grew up with that rave style came down to the way that, because of these technological decisions, the tunes didn't fit into the regular tonal or modal mould. To some extent, people heard it as dissonant because it's not tonal. Now it's just part of the 90s dance sound.

However, the technique of chord planing turns up in Debussy's and other impressionist composers' work from close to a hundred years earlier (though without the distorted organs and donks). To some extent, a kind of planing turns up in medieval choral music, albeit only with a single interval of a fifth, not with the minor thirds that make house planing sound so different.

Since those early times, intervals such as fourths, thirds and sixths have at different times been considered consonant and dissonant. The tritone has gone from dissonant to consonant sometimes. The minor second, in harmony, is dissonant most of the time and will probably stay that way.

[cron]

... chord planing...

Interesting to hear there's a term for this and some history to the technique. Thanks for sharing.

[fmr]

The Republic by Plato, Book III (398-403).
.../...
[Socrates expands on the role of the artist in the ideal State and argues that unsuitable artists should be prevented from practising their art.]
.../...
[A short discussion of the nature of pleasure.]

The Dialogues of Plato, translated by Benjamin Jowett, Volume Four, The Republic, edited by M Hare & DA Russell, Sphere Books Ltd., 1970, Book III (398-403), pp.165-171.

If Socrates arguing, as written by Plato, had been followed, KVR would be an almost empty forum, and the music scene would be much cleaner

And dissonance would be a much better understood notion, and this kind of question would never arise.

[sjm]

Both of the arcade game examples posted use the oldschool rave trick of loading a full chord into the sampler and then playing it like a standard melodic line. It's not so much dissonant as what I call 'rave tonality'. I suppose it is dissonant, but when you grew up enthralled with UK dance music in the early 90s, your ear is fairly used to it.

This is also similar to the ending of I am the Walrus, to bring another example. The root notes simply descend down the C major scale, note by note. The chords however are all major. I wouldn't call it dissonant, just unusual. The effect is very similar to what you describe.

[fmr]

Both of the arcade game examples posted use the oldschool rave trick of loading a full chord into the sampler and then playing it like a standard melodic line. It's not so much dissonant as what I call 'rave tonality'. I suppose it is dissonant, but when you grew up enthralled with UK dance music in the early 90s, your ear is fairly used to it.

This is also similar to the ending of I am the Walrus, to bring another example. The root notes simply descend down the C major scale, note by note. The chords however are all major. I wouldn't call it dissonant, just unusual. The effect is very similar to what you describe.

Yes, but those techniques are very basic (I would say primary). The techniques used in after-war by the likes of Pierre Schaeffer and Pierre Henry went really far, in what concerns sound exploration and manipulation, using pre-recorded material.

That's the kind of effects that Ligeti recreated, only that, because he was dissatisfied with the sound quality achieved in the studio, he used regular instrument ensembles, like string quartets, choir, organ, or the full symphonic orchestra. With the advent of samplers, some went down this path (a movement called digital concrète), but the vast majority just used samples in the lazy way, like the example given. What we can achieve in terms of sound manipulation, with a sound editor and a sampler is simply astonishing.

That's why I say that concepts like consonance and dissonance are extraenous in a universe where sound only, and sound manipulation, exist. Unfortunately, the vast majority seems to still think that jazz is the most advanced there is in terms of advanced composition.

[KoolKool]

not only rave,but i also spot dissonance happen on rock metal......

[fmr]

Like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iVYu5lyX5M
Or this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbLcI9- ... bLcI9-Js0U

oh gawd....that music should be illegal, or used for torture purposes only. making music that is purposefully dissonant is

AWFULLLLLL AWFULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL PLEASE NO ONE WATCH THOSE< DO NOT CLICK ON THE LINKS, even momentary exposure can cause MASSIVE HEADACHES. u have been warned

[zethus909]

And dissonance would be a much better understood notion, and this kind of question would never arise.

it's really simple. good dissonance sounds GOOD.

BAD dissonance, gives you a headache.